The Complex Issues of a Loss Like No Other – Suicide Part II

Steve Smelski: 00:00:04

Hello everybody.

Steve Smelski: 00:00:05

Thank you for joining us today.

Steve Smelski: 00:00:09

This episode, we decided that with a lot of things that are going on

Steve Smelski: 00:00:14

in the news, that we would go back and touch on the subject of suicide.

Steve Smelski: 00:00:20

Again, we did a part one a few weeks ago, and we'd like to call this episode about

Steve Smelski: 00:00:27

suicide and it'll be a part two version.

Steve Smelski: 00:00:31

And there's been a lot of things in the news lately.

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And just to take a back and bring up what we touched on in part one,

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we talked about the complex issues.

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Number of statistics to grow number of cases, no common component.

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It's hard to decipher why, and then talked in depth about the iceberg analogy.

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I shared a personal story.

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Marshall did.

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So one of the things that is often been upfront for me, and

Steve Smelski: 00:01:06

I don't know, I don't understand suicide as well as Marshall does.

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He's right a lot more than I have.

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But it's the consequences, not only to the people who are

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injured or die from their attempt.

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It also affects the rest of the family and the community.

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And that can be through shock, anger, guilt, and depression.

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And the last episode, we talked about the fact that they would be considered

Steve Smelski: 00:01:31

suicide survivors, and then those that actually attempt suicide and survive may

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have serious injuries or broken bones, which can have longterm effects on health.

Steve Smelski: 00:01:43

Obviously, Marshal, this affects a very large number of people in the U.S.

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right now.

Steve Smelski: 00:01:50

What are your thoughts around dealing with the shock, the anger, the guilt,

Steve Smelski: 00:01:54

and the depression as a suicide survivor?

Marshall Adler: 00:01:57

Steve, that's an excellent question.

Marshall Adler: 00:02:00

And there's so many different facets to suicide that are so incomprehensible.

Marshall Adler: 00:02:10

I know you and I have talked both on and off the camera on the show about

Marshall Adler: 00:02:22

losing a loved one suddenly versus somebody that has a terminal debilitating

Marshall Adler: 00:02:31

longterm disease, where you know that the end result is going to be their

Marshall Adler: 00:02:34

passing and there's different dynamics with both and which is worse than, it's

Marshall Adler: 00:02:38

hard to tell .With suicide and it's sort of bittersweet when you said I

Marshall Adler: 00:02:45

know more about suicide than you do.

Marshall Adler: 00:02:47

Unfortunately, I wish I didn't, but I do because that's how Matt passed.

Marshall Adler: 00:02:53

And I just decided that I have to spend the rest of my life learning as much as I

Marshall Adler: 00:03:00

can to not only help me on my journey of grief, but to try to help others that have

Marshall Adler: 00:03:07

either lost loved ones through suicide or find some type of medical technology

Marshall Adler: 00:03:15

that will eventually help diagnose, treat, and hopefully some take cure whatever

Marshall Adler: 00:03:24

the entity is that causes suicide.

Marshall Adler: 00:03:27

So it's a real complicated question.

Marshall Adler: 00:03:31

And I think I will just tell you.

Marshall Adler: 00:03:35

And I'll tell a little joke here.

Marshall Adler: 00:03:37

What'd you think you always have to use humor?

Marshall Adler: 00:03:38

You know, I'm not a doctor, I don't play when I'm on TV.

Marshall Adler: 00:03:42

But I obviously can't give medical advice, but I've talked to literally

Marshall Adler: 00:03:48

hundreds of people that have lost loved ones to suicide and thee every suicide

Marshall Adler: 00:03:58

is different, but the overwhelming common factor that I've seen is that

Marshall Adler: 00:04:08

the people that have lost love and the suicide, didn't see it coming.

Marshall Adler: 00:04:13

And I've been amazed by how many people that have told me that even

Marshall Adler: 00:04:19

when their loved one had previously unsuccessfully attempted suicide, where

Marshall Adler: 00:04:25

they knew that this person had attempted didn't succeed were still alive.

Marshall Adler: 00:04:30

But when they actually did this and took their life, they were shocked

Marshall Adler: 00:04:37

because I think what happens is if somebody is at the point where they

Marshall Adler: 00:04:47

have made the decision to take their life, I've heard so many people and

Marshall Adler: 00:04:54

I'll say this with Matt, absolutely.

Marshall Adler: 00:04:58

I literally talked to him.

Marshall Adler: 00:05:00

It was probably the day before he passed and he was funny and upbeat.

Marshall Adler: 00:05:06

And looking forward to the future, Matt was doing his own content

Marshall Adler: 00:05:10

with movies, things like that.

Marshall Adler: 00:05:12

The day that he passed, we think that he literally launched new YouTube channel

Marshall Adler: 00:05:19

with some of his original content.

Steve Smelski: 00:05:20

Oh wow

Marshall Adler: 00:05:21

And you're saying, why in the world would you launch a new

Marshall Adler: 00:05:27

YouTube channel with original content if you're not going to even survive the day.

Marshall Adler: 00:05:33

Because again, this is just my personal philosophy.

Marshall Adler: 00:05:37

I think that people that have suicidal ideation is a battle that

Marshall Adler: 00:05:43

they have to fight every single day.

Marshall Adler: 00:05:46

And they know that there will come a day when they're gonna lose that battle.

Marshall Adler: 00:05:52

Maybe it's today.

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Maybe it's tomorrow, maybe it's a week, a month, a year, a decade from now.

Marshall Adler: 00:05:58

They don't know.

Marshall Adler: 00:05:59

So I think they live their lives the best they can being as productive

Marshall Adler: 00:06:04

as they can for as long as they can, until they lose that battle.

Marshall Adler: 00:06:09

And I'll just talk about Matt.

Marshall Adler: 00:06:14

About a year before that passed, there was a very good female friend

Marshall Adler: 00:06:22

of Matt that passed by suicide.

Marshall Adler: 00:06:27

And I think again, just trying to put this all together, I

Marshall Adler: 00:06:30

think Matt was in love with her.

Marshall Adler: 00:06:34

And what happened is she attempted suicide and survived and put out so many thank

Marshall Adler: 00:06:49

yous on social media, to the people that supported her after she survived

Marshall Adler: 00:06:56

a suicide attempt that she felt she had a whole new viewpoint on life, a whole

Marshall Adler: 00:07:04

new philosophy, a whole new arsenal of tools to fight suicidal ideation.

Marshall Adler: 00:07:16

If you saw those things say, wow, this is fantastic.

Marshall Adler: 00:07:19

She's really came close to the abyss and stepped back and what happened?

Marshall Adler: 00:07:25

I think within four weeks later, she did attempt to succeed and she passed.

Marshall Adler: 00:07:32

So even though she attempted, and people knew, she attempted people were

Marshall Adler: 00:07:38

shocked that she passed by suicide because of all of the statements she was

Marshall Adler: 00:07:49

giving to her friends and loved ones.

Marshall Adler: 00:07:51

Showing that this would never happen again when she could

Marshall Adler: 00:07:54

have been fighting it daily, not knowing what day they would happen.

Marshall Adler: 00:08:00

So for the survivors to think that the coulda shoulda, woulda

Marshall Adler: 00:08:10

would have changed the outcome.

Marshall Adler: 00:08:12

I think it's number one, not healthy.

Marshall Adler: 00:08:16

And number two, I think is probably delusional.

Marshall Adler: 00:08:20

Because somebody that loses a loved one to suicide.

Marshall Adler: 00:08:26

And I've said this many, many times, if you could have stopped it, you would

Marshall Adler: 00:08:30

have you didn't because you can't.

Marshall Adler: 00:08:34

And you know, Matt was 3000 miles away, but we just saw him.

Marshall Adler: 00:08:42

He was here in Orlando and I put them on the plane.

Marshall Adler: 00:08:49

Less than two weeks before he passed and he was the happiest that

Marshall Adler: 00:08:54

I've seen him in his adult life.

Marshall Adler: 00:08:57

And I just told him how proud I was of him.

Marshall Adler: 00:09:00

And he told me that he finally learned that it's not what

Marshall Adler: 00:09:04

happened to you in life.

Marshall Adler: 00:09:06

It's how you handle it, how you cope with it.

Marshall Adler: 00:09:08

And as a parent that's music to your ears.

Marshall Adler: 00:09:11

Cause that's what we all have to do.

Marshall Adler: 00:09:13

You can't control.

Marshall Adler: 00:09:13

It's going to happen to you.

Marshall Adler: 00:09:14

It's how you deal with the challenges of life.

Marshall Adler: 00:09:19

Matt really dealt with the challenges in a very brave way and living

Marshall Adler: 00:09:27

a life of kindness and purpose.

Marshall Adler: 00:09:30

And so when he passed, we were so shocked because every outward sign

Marshall Adler: 00:09:42

was that this was something that would never, ever, ever happen.

Marshall Adler: 00:09:46

To him or to us and it did so whatever guilt feelings of, I should've done

Marshall Adler: 00:09:55

this, should've done that, that exist with people have lost levels of suicide.

Marshall Adler: 00:10:03

I think over time, the ones that I've talked to have

Marshall Adler: 00:10:07

all realized it's a fallacy.

Marshall Adler: 00:10:11

You can't control that any more than you could control.

Marshall Adler: 00:10:14

And I said this before somebody with a Glioblastoma brain tumor

Marshall Adler: 00:10:18

and it's a Gioblastoma brain tumor is a horrific brain cancer.

Marshall Adler: 00:10:26

The medical technology has doesn't have a cure for, and to think that

Marshall Adler: 00:10:31

all my loved one, if they ever got it, I'd be able to control that.

Marshall Adler: 00:10:34

So they won't pass away.

Marshall Adler: 00:10:37

That's fantasy thinking because John McCain passed

Marshall Adler: 00:10:43

from it, his family loved him.

Marshall Adler: 00:10:45

Ted Kennedy passed from it.

Marshall Adler: 00:10:47

His family loves him at a very good friend of mine.

Marshall Adler: 00:10:51

Bob Felice, wonderful guy, his family loved him, he passed from it.

Marshall Adler: 00:10:58

So I think this is just a corollary of the same condition in the sense that whatever

you want to call suicide: 00:11:09

brain disease, chemical imbalance, whatever name you want

you want to call suicide: 00:11:16

to put on, it is not the important thing.

you want to call suicide: 00:11:18

The important thing is that medical science doesn't have a diagnostic tool

you want to call suicide: 00:11:25

to identify it a treatment to help with the symptoms or a cure to prevent it.

you want to call suicide: 00:11:36

Given that , I think the guilt and the sense of cause with the

you want to call suicide: 00:11:42

guilt, the underlying premise is that I could control this.

you want to call suicide: 00:11:49

You can't, you never did.

Steve Smelski: 00:11:52

So your question or your answer to that question

Steve Smelski: 00:11:57

raised two other questions for me.

Steve Smelski: 00:12:00

You pointed out that on the day that Matt died he had actually started a

Steve Smelski: 00:12:07

YouTube channel, brand new one with his own content, which means he woke

Steve Smelski: 00:12:12

up that day, never contemplating or thinking that was in the plan.

Marshall Adler: 00:12:17

Right.

Marshall Adler: 00:12:18

He actually went to a movie that day ,also, could he saw pictures

Marshall Adler: 00:12:26

of it and he was critiquing the movie, man was this incredibly

Marshall Adler: 00:12:33

sophisticated, incredibly intelligent, incredibly knowledgeable film expert.

Marshall Adler: 00:12:42

And he would dissect films like a biologist will dissect the molecule.

Marshall Adler: 00:12:49

It's just incredible the way he did it.

Marshall Adler: 00:12:52

And it literally was that day.

Marshall Adler: 00:12:54

So I don't think he had any idea that he was not going to survive the day.

Marshall Adler: 00:13:02

It just wasn't on the radar screen.

Marshall Adler: 00:13:04

It's all it was.

Steve Smelski: 00:13:05

Wow, I guess I hadn't heard it explained that way before.

Steve Smelski: 00:13:11

The second question that your first answer gave me was those

Steve Smelski: 00:13:16

that attempt suicide, but survive.

Steve Smelski: 00:13:19

Obviously that there's going to be physical or emotional or psychological

Steve Smelski: 00:13:27

problems from based on how far close they got to it, which could actually

Steve Smelski: 00:13:32

affect them the rest of their life.

Steve Smelski: 00:13:33

So from our standpoint, looking in, you're like, oh, that's awesome.

Steve Smelski: 00:13:39

They didn't now they got a new lease on life, but that's really

Steve Smelski: 00:13:43

not the way it works is it?

Marshall Adler: 00:13:46

It's like putting a bandaid on a raging infection.

Marshall Adler: 00:13:50

If you've got a raging infection, it's a bacterial infection.

Marshall Adler: 00:13:53

You're going to need an antibiotic to fight it.

Marshall Adler: 00:13:55

A bandaid, it may feel better because it's pushing it down or doing

Marshall Adler: 00:14:00

something with it, but it's not a cure.

Marshall Adler: 00:14:03

And I think the whatever, again, whatever the disease process of suicide is, I don't

Marshall Adler: 00:14:13

know if a unsuccessful attempt alters the timeline of the, of the disease.

Marshall Adler: 00:14:22

It may delay it.

Marshall Adler: 00:14:25

It may change his progression for a while, but I don't think it cures it

Marshall Adler: 00:14:34

because I've talked to many people.

Marshall Adler: 00:14:39

Who've had loved ones perform multiple suicide attempts unsuccessfully,

Marshall Adler: 00:14:46

and then eventually pass where they suicide that unfortunately succeeds.

Steve Smelski: 00:14:52

Wow.

Steve Smelski: 00:14:55

So let's, let's switch gears a little bit here.

Steve Smelski: 00:14:59

I've been since we had that first episode, I've been reading and noticing articles

Steve Smelski: 00:15:04

on suicide, mental illness, depression.

Steve Smelski: 00:15:08

There was a report in The Washington Post showing coronavirus pandemic is pushing

Steve Smelski: 00:15:14

America into a mental health crisis.

Steve Smelski: 00:15:18

Do you think that is absolutely true and where do you see that going?

Marshall Adler: 00:15:24

I think it is absolutely true and I'll just

Marshall Adler: 00:15:25

answer this in two different ways.

Marshall Adler: 00:15:30

As you know, I've spoke of Dr.

Marshall Adler: 00:15:33

Lorna Breen, who was a ER physician in New York City who was an incredible person

Marshall Adler: 00:15:41

and during the worst of the worst of the worst of the pandemic in New York, she

Marshall Adler: 00:15:47

was literally obsessed with trying to save people and apparently there was one time

Marshall Adler: 00:15:53

that she was distraught and they had to tell her, you know, you've got to take

Marshall Adler: 00:16:00

care of yourself, but I think somebody said that she was seeing people literally

Marshall Adler: 00:16:03

in the waiting room waiting to be seen that eventually died in the waiting room.

Steve Smelski: 00:16:09

Right.

Marshall Adler: 00:16:10

Seeing a doctor.

Marshall Adler: 00:16:11

Because it was such a tsunami of cases and it really, really adversely affected her.

Marshall Adler: 00:16:18

And she eventually was taken by a psychiatrist friend.

Marshall Adler: 00:16:24

And it's my understanding from reading the media reports to her home in

Marshall Adler: 00:16:30

Charlottesville, Virginia, where she was admitted at the university of

Marshall Adler: 00:16:33

Virginia medical center with her family.

Marshall Adler: 00:16:37

I think she was hospitalized for 9 days and was discharged and then came home

Marshall Adler: 00:16:45

and took her life, which to me shows two things about the control thing.

Marshall Adler: 00:16:53

Obviously , there's an example of what I was talking about in the sense

Marshall Adler: 00:16:56

that she was in a wonderfully safe.

Marshall Adler: 00:17:06

excellent university medical research center.

Marshall Adler: 00:17:09

The University of Virginia is one of the finest universities in the

Marshall Adler: 00:17:12

world, a wonderful medical center.

Marshall Adler: 00:17:15

And she was there, obviously I'll draw observation and if they had known what

Marshall Adler: 00:17:21

would have happened to her, obviously they would have done something to

Marshall Adler: 00:17:25

do what they could do to prevent it and they didn't because they didn't

Marshall Adler: 00:17:29

see it or they couldn't stop it.

Marshall Adler: 00:17:31

So the control thing to me just shows you, Oh, even experts in the medical field.

Marshall Adler: 00:17:37

Can't control it.

Marshall Adler: 00:17:39

Can't control that's number one.

Marshall Adler: 00:17:41

But number two is I think there's going to be two different things going on

Marshall Adler: 00:17:48

from the two different population basis.

Marshall Adler: 00:17:52

I think that the first line responders and medical professionals that have

Marshall Adler: 00:18:00

dealt with the tsunami of cases and I've seen such death on such a large scale.

Marshall Adler: 00:18:12

I've heard many of them give interviews saying that they believe that they

Marshall Adler: 00:18:15

have PTSD and they will be having PTSD, but they can't even deal with it now

Marshall Adler: 00:18:23

because they got to try to save lives.

Marshall Adler: 00:18:25

But after this is all over it cause PTSD, as we know is Post

Marshall Adler: 00:18:29

Traumatic Stress Disorder.

Marshall Adler: 00:18:31

So they're still in the middle of the trauma.

Marshall Adler: 00:18:34

So it's almost like pre-post, they haven't gotten there yet because

Marshall Adler: 00:18:37

it's still, we're still in the trauma the pandemic is still here.

Marshall Adler: 00:18:39

But once the dust settles, I think the longterm effect on the medical responders

Marshall Adler: 00:18:48

is going to be very, very profound.

Marshall Adler: 00:18:51

And the I know that the family of Lorna Brene or father was a medical doctor

Marshall Adler: 00:18:58

and her family set up a charitable fund specifically to fund mental health

Marshall Adler: 00:19:05

treatment for medical people, first responders, because they, more than

Marshall Adler: 00:19:11

anybody else know how severe this can and probably will be for their population.

Marshall Adler: 00:19:17

So that's a subset that I think is truly going to be unfortunately

Marshall Adler: 00:19:25

dealing with issue of suicide in the larger societal picture.

Marshall Adler: 00:19:32

My fear is that younger people and older people are going to be at risk

Marshall Adler: 00:19:46

because older people, as we know, many times get lonely because they have

Marshall Adler: 00:19:52

lived a long life, many of their loved ones, their friends are not around.

Marshall Adler: 00:19:56

They don't have ability to socialize because of physical impairments or

Marshall Adler: 00:20:00

whatever you add that now with the social distancing requirements and inability to

Marshall Adler: 00:20:09

have human contact through the pandemic.

Marshall Adler: 00:20:11

I think that's going to have an adverse effect that could affect

Marshall Adler: 00:20:17

the suicide rate among older people.

Marshall Adler: 00:20:20

But the flip side of that coin is younger people because younger people

Marshall Adler: 00:20:25

may not have the coping mechanisms to deal with such a catastrophic change in

Marshall Adler: 00:20:34

their lives, in the sense that so many people at a young age their friends,

Marshall Adler: 00:20:46

their social interactions take a much greater importance in their life than

Marshall Adler: 00:20:53

it should, including social media.

Marshall Adler: 00:20:56

How many likes she gets and with no human to human contact, no touching, no hugging.

Marshall Adler: 00:21:10

That could be exacerbated because all they're going to be dealing with is what

Marshall Adler: 00:21:13

we're doing now, talking to machines.

Marshall Adler: 00:21:16

I see you see me we are interacting, but not in the normal sense the way humans

Marshall Adler: 00:21:23

have been interacting for thousands and thousands of years saying hi to

Marshall Adler: 00:21:27

each other, being close to each other, shaking hands, pat each other on the

Marshall Adler: 00:21:31

back, hugging . All that is prohibited now because the pandemic requires it.

Marshall Adler: 00:21:37

So again, I don't know how that is going to affect, but I have seen

Marshall Adler: 00:21:47

studies just starting now how suicide rates this year are already higher than

Marshall Adler: 00:21:56

they were last year at the same time.

Marshall Adler: 00:22:00

And I think the third issue to be looked at, which is a

Marshall Adler: 00:22:06

medical issue, is that I know Dr.

Marshall Adler: 00:22:10

Breen's family thought that the virus attacked her brain and could have been a

Marshall Adler: 00:22:20

contributing factor in her suicide because there, you know, because it's a novel

Marshall Adler: 00:22:26

coronavirus, it's a new virus, medical science doesn't know exactly where and

Marshall Adler: 00:22:31

what part of the body is being attacked.

Marshall Adler: 00:22:32

So there are neurological issues dealing with this, and that could be another

Marshall Adler: 00:22:37

factor leading to increase suicides.

Steve Smelski: 00:22:40

That was going to be my next question

Steve Smelski: 00:22:42

cause I had read some things.

Steve Smelski: 00:22:44

Her dad was a medical doctor as well, and he said she'd never been suicidal

Steve Smelski: 00:22:49

before and never thought about it.

Steve Smelski: 00:22:51

And he had that question, could it have been a medical

Steve Smelski: 00:22:54

reaction from the virus itself.

Steve Smelski: 00:22:57

Which is a whole nother ball game that we have no data on tobacco or

Steve Smelski: 00:23:02

history long enough out to see what the effects are going to be interesting.

Steve Smelski: 00:23:09

So I also read that there was another article.

Steve Smelski: 00:23:13

I think this one was on CNN and it was an episode on suicide.

Steve Smelski: 00:23:17

And they said there's a couple of reports that have been out saying that one in

Steve Smelski: 00:23:20

four young people between the ages of 18 and 24 have actually thought about and

Steve Smelski: 00:23:26

contemplating suicide since March of 2020.

Steve Smelski: 00:23:30

To me, that is, that's a scary number.

Marshall Adler: 00:23:35

It's horrific!

Marshall Adler: 00:23:37

I ,you know, so much of data and polling is what somebody is willing to tell you.

Marshall Adler: 00:23:48

So that's 1/4 of the people contact were willing to say

Marshall Adler: 00:23:53

yes, I have suicidal ideation.

Marshall Adler: 00:23:57

How many people have suicidal ideation, but they're not gonna tell the pollster.

Marshall Adler: 00:24:03

So that could be the floor, not the ceiling.

Steve Smelski: 00:24:06

Yeah.

Marshall Adler: 00:24:08

Which it's evem worse.

Marshall Adler: 00:24:12

And again, and how many of those people will actually act on that to be

Marshall Adler: 00:24:20

determined, but that's not a good number.

Steve Smelski: 00:24:24

No, it's certainly not a good number.

Steve Smelski: 00:24:27

You touched on something earlier talking about wondering if I should of seen

Steve Smelski: 00:24:34

signs or if I should have seen it coming.

Steve Smelski: 00:24:37

Could I have prevented it and you've pretty much come

Steve Smelski: 00:24:40

out and said, absolutely not.

Steve Smelski: 00:24:42

They're going to go through with it.

Steve Smelski: 00:24:43

There's no way you could have seen it ,contemplated, known or changed it.

Steve Smelski: 00:24:49

What do you say to the survivors and the parents and the

Steve Smelski: 00:24:54

friends and the grandparents?

Steve Smelski: 00:24:58

I mean, you and I have been in grief for a while and we know

Steve Smelski: 00:25:01

guilt can be a very big part of it.

Steve Smelski: 00:25:06

We worry about things that are completely out of our control.

Steve Smelski: 00:25:09

And somehow you put yourself in the middle of it and say,

Steve Smelski: 00:25:11

wow, I should have known that.

Steve Smelski: 00:25:13

Or I could've prevented that if I just, and it's like, I think

Steve Smelski: 00:25:18

it's nonsense to take yourself there, but we all think about it

Steve Smelski: 00:25:21

at some point in our grief journey.

Steve Smelski: 00:25:24

What do you say to them as far as giving them hope?

Steve Smelski: 00:25:30

I know there's several Bible verses that I've found.

Steve Smelski: 00:25:34

Which talk about your days are numbered their number before you

Steve Smelski: 00:25:38

were born, not after you were born.

Steve Smelski: 00:25:41

And so as a parent, is it, is it even worth taking the time and

Steve Smelski: 00:25:46

effort to go there and think about that or as a brother or a sister?

Steve Smelski: 00:25:50

I mean, those are dark thoughts and it's a bad place to go and dwell in.

Marshall Adler: 00:25:57

It is in it's interesting.

Marshall Adler: 00:26:00

You mentioned the Bible because being Jewish, I 've spent my entire

Marshall Adler: 00:26:05

life going to holiday service for Rosh Hashanah, and Yom Kippur.

Marshall Adler: 00:26:11

Rosh Hashanah is the Jewish new year.

Marshall Adler: 00:26:13

Yom Kippur, a day of atonment , but they're 10 days apart.

Marshall Adler: 00:26:16

And the prayer book, my entire life I've read it.

Marshall Adler: 00:26:19

And I really amazed how this resonates with me now that in the Jewish religion

Marshall Adler: 00:26:26

at the beginning of the year, it's stated that it's already written

Marshall Adler: 00:26:31

who shall live, who shall die, who shall be content, who shall have

Marshall Adler: 00:26:35

difficulties it's already in the book.

Marshall Adler: 00:26:38

And again, the control that we think we have is an illusion

Marshall Adler: 00:26:44

and probably a delusion.

Marshall Adler: 00:26:46

Maybe it helps us sleep well at night.

Marshall Adler: 00:26:48

I think we can control things when we can't.

Marshall Adler: 00:26:50

If that helps people sleep.

Marshall Adler: 00:26:51

So be it.

Marshall Adler: 00:26:52

But the sense of control again is such a difficult concept because I think it

Marshall Adler: 00:27:03

all is going to do is lead to guilt.

Marshall Adler: 00:27:05

And I think the thing that I decided to do was to make my emphasis and

Marshall Adler: 00:27:19

looking at what Matt did during his life, how we live, not how he died.

Marshall Adler: 00:27:25

Because after he passed away, we've been inundated with people calling

Marshall Adler: 00:27:32

us, texting us, emailing us, stopping by our house, telling us what a

Marshall Adler: 00:27:38

wonderful human being Matt was and how he positively affected their lives

Marshall Adler: 00:27:44

and change our lives for the better.

Marshall Adler: 00:27:46

And he was on this planet for 32 years and I think he knew he

Marshall Adler: 00:27:55

wasn't gonna live a long life.

Marshall Adler: 00:27:58

And so he was going to make the most of his time here.

Marshall Adler: 00:28:01

And in the end of the day, none of us are here a long time.

Marshall Adler: 00:28:06

And isn't it the lesson that we all have to learn, we're all here a short time.

Marshall Adler: 00:28:10

you better make it a good time by making the place we live on

Marshall Adler: 00:28:15

this planet earth better than it was when you, before you came.

Marshall Adler: 00:28:21

And because of that, Any guilt that I think a suicides survivor has,

Marshall Adler: 00:28:30

should be looked at differently because the guilt, I think, is a

Marshall Adler: 00:28:36

offshoot of the control fallacy.

Marshall Adler: 00:28:39

And if you let go of the control fallacy, because at this

Marshall Adler: 00:28:42

point you lost your loved one.

Marshall Adler: 00:28:45

You can't rewind the videotape and say, let's go and do a reshoot here.

Marshall Adler: 00:28:50

That's not going to happen.

Marshall Adler: 00:28:52

So it's just negative emotion.

Marshall Adler: 00:28:54

That's probably going to hurt you when you need to be emotionally,

Marshall Adler: 00:28:58

physically, and mentally as fit as you can be to deal with grief.

Marshall Adler: 00:29:05

Number one, but also number two, I don't think you love don't

Marshall Adler: 00:29:08

want that to be done to hurt you.

Marshall Adler: 00:29:11

They were not doing anything to hurt their loved ones.

Marshall Adler: 00:29:19

It was just, again, whatever you want to call that illness, brain disease, whatever

Marshall Adler: 00:29:25

chemical beltway we want to call it.

Marshall Adler: 00:29:26

It was just the timeline of that disease process.

Marshall Adler: 00:29:30

And I think realizing that would help deal with any potential grief that somebody has

Marshall Adler: 00:29:40

and concentrating on the the dash between the birth and the death of somebody, its

Marshall Adler: 00:29:48

all that counts when you remember them.

Marshall Adler: 00:29:51

There's a saying in the Jewish religion, may their memory be a blessing and Matt's

Marshall Adler: 00:30:03

memory is a blessing because I was blessed to have him for 32 years of I saw him.

Marshall Adler: 00:30:07

He was a wonderful human being.

Marshall Adler: 00:30:09

He did incredible things for so many people.

Marshall Adler: 00:30:13

During his time here for that, I'm thankful.

Marshall Adler: 00:30:16

Do I wish he was here?

Marshall Adler: 00:30:18

Of course I do.

Marshall Adler: 00:30:18

Cause he, I loved him and he was one of the funniest people

Marshall Adler: 00:30:23

I've ever met in my life.

Marshall Adler: 00:30:24

And I really miss seeing him every day and I miss his humor.

Marshall Adler: 00:30:28

He made me laugh every single day, but that doesn't change

Marshall Adler: 00:30:34

what I have in my heart.

Marshall Adler: 00:30:36

Doesn't change what I have my memory.

Marshall Adler: 00:30:40

It doesn't change all the good work that he did.

Marshall Adler: 00:30:43

So I think my words of wisdom to somebody lost a loved one when they passed by

Marshall Adler: 00:30:51

suicide is that you can concentrate on the dash, how they live, not how they died.

Steve Smelski: 00:30:59

Interesting comment.

Steve Smelski: 00:31:00

I think Dr.

Steve Smelski: 00:31:01

Hunter actually mentioned that during one of our episodes with him.

Steve Smelski: 00:31:06

Let me ask another question.

Steve Smelski: 00:31:07

I found a document out on the CDC website and it says they've created

Steve Smelski: 00:31:12

a package of info called preventing suicide, a technical package of

Steve Smelski: 00:31:18

policy programs and practices.

Steve Smelski: 00:31:21

So I've glazed through it.

Steve Smelski: 00:31:23

I've looked at some of the different articles and stuff on it.

Steve Smelski: 00:31:29

And they show a strategy and approach for preventing suicide.

Steve Smelski: 00:31:33

And I think there's like seven items on the list.

Steve Smelski: 00:31:38

Is that even possible?

Marshall Adler: 00:31:40

You know, again, I say again, it a little humor here.

Marshall Adler: 00:31:44

I'm not a doctorate who don't play one on TV.

Marshall Adler: 00:31:47

I've got my own personal viewpoint about how.

Marshall Adler: 00:31:55

The suicide prevention that medical science has done

Marshall Adler: 00:32:04

results in effective treatment.

Marshall Adler: 00:32:11

As a lawyer, I'm always very evidence-based and the unfortunate

Marshall Adler: 00:32:16

statistics, the facts show that suicide is increasing at an alarming rate.

Marshall Adler: 00:32:23

So however you want to slice or dice it, excuse me.

Marshall Adler: 00:32:29

That's my dog barking.

Marshall Adler: 00:32:30

And there's a, there's a thunderstorm approaching.

Marshall Adler: 00:32:32

So I apologize.

Marshall Adler: 00:32:34

However you want to slice and dice it.

Marshall Adler: 00:32:38

The numbers show that the suicide rate has increased regardless of what

Marshall Adler: 00:32:49

preventions or what treatments were done.

Marshall Adler: 00:32:52

So I think we have to look at it that hopefully medical technology will

Marshall Adler: 00:32:59

increase the effectiveness and the treatment modalities that can help people

Marshall Adler: 00:33:08

with suicide and help those that have lost loved ones to suicide, to deal

Marshall Adler: 00:33:13

with philosophers, suicide loved one.

Marshall Adler: 00:33:16

But I think it's a work in progress to say the least, because the

Marshall Adler: 00:33:20

numbers unfortunately are increasing, not decreasing, which is never

Marshall Adler: 00:33:24

good for any disease process.

Steve Smelski: 00:33:28

So, Marshall, let me ask a last question today on this episode.

Steve Smelski: 00:33:34

So we're dealing with a pandemic we're dealing with isolation.

Steve Smelski: 00:33:38

We're dealing with something that can actually cause physical and mental issues.

Steve Smelski: 00:33:43

The viruses itself, I mean, a lot of people are saying they've got blood

Steve Smelski: 00:33:47

clots in the brain and in the lungs.

Steve Smelski: 00:33:49

As a parent in the U.S.

Steve Smelski: 00:33:51

and you've got children that you're worried about, especially seeing the

Steve Smelski: 00:33:54

numbers 1 in 4 or of that age group, 18 to 24, 25 could be contemplating it.

Steve Smelski: 00:34:02

What do you, what do you tell him?

Steve Smelski: 00:34:04

What do you recommend?

Steve Smelski: 00:34:06

What can they do?

Marshall Adler: 00:34:08

You know, I think all you can do is your best in the sense

Marshall Adler: 00:34:13

that, you know, as a parent, your number one job is to protect your

Marshall Adler: 00:34:22

children and again, I think it's the illusion and the delusion of control.

Marshall Adler: 00:34:29

You know, I'll just tell you, my father was a complete realist and my mother

Marshall Adler: 00:34:36

wasn't and my mother's mother was this tiny little woman who had a very

Marshall Adler: 00:34:43

powerful personality from Eastern Europe.

Marshall Adler: 00:34:46

And she used to tell my father that she hopes and prays and wants

Marshall Adler: 00:34:56

nothing bad to happen to her children or children's children's and her

Marshall Adler: 00:35:00

children's children's children.

Marshall Adler: 00:35:02

And my father would just say that that's all good and well, but unfortunately you

Marshall Adler: 00:35:08

can't control if something bad is gonna happen to your children, your children's

Marshall Adler: 00:35:13

children's or your children's children.

Marshall Adler: 00:35:16

And my dad used to be sort of funny about that, but as I've been

Marshall Adler: 00:35:26

on the path of grief with Matt's passing, I realized my dad was right.

Marshall Adler: 00:35:31

And all you can do is do the best you can for what you think is best

Marshall Adler: 00:35:39

for your child band obviously get to a mental health professional.

Marshall Adler: 00:35:47

If you think it's worded, if you think you've got to call 911, call 911.

Marshall Adler: 00:35:53

The only alternative that you can really see that you can respond

Marshall Adler: 00:36:04

to, if you think there's a crisis developing is medical intervention.

Marshall Adler: 00:36:09

And is that a guarantee?

Marshall Adler: 00:36:11

Of course not ,as I just answered the suicide numbers are increasing and if

Marshall Adler: 00:36:16

medical technology, medical science had an answer for it, it'd be going down.

Marshall Adler: 00:36:21

They're not going down.

Marshall Adler: 00:36:22

The numbers are going up.

Marshall Adler: 00:36:22

It's just, it's a fact.

Marshall Adler: 00:36:24

But it doesn't mean you don't try to get somebody, the treatment

Marshall Adler: 00:36:30

that you think they need.

Marshall Adler: 00:36:31

So as a parent or as a child, if you see a parent yourself, or a spouse, or a sibling

Marshall Adler: 00:36:40

,or a cousin or a friend or anybody that you think is struggling with mental health

Marshall Adler: 00:36:47

issues in general or suicidal ideation in particular, get them to a mental health

Marshall Adler: 00:36:52

professional expert as soon as possible.

Marshall Adler: 00:36:55

Is that going to guarantee that there won't be further issues?

Marshall Adler: 00:37:00

There won't be further problems or that there won't be a tragic

Marshall Adler: 00:37:08

situation that could unfold.

Marshall Adler: 00:37:10

Of course not, because it happens every day.

Marshall Adler: 00:37:14

You know the number of veterans in the United States taking their lives.

Marshall Adler: 00:37:25

If I remember correctly, it's about one an hour.

Marshall Adler: 00:37:27

We've been doing this podcast for this episode about an hour now.

Marshall Adler: 00:37:32

Statistically ,the probability, is it somebody somewhere, some veteran

Marshall Adler: 00:37:39

in this country could have taken their life during this hour that we

Marshall Adler: 00:37:44

just did this episode and the medical technology that we're dealing with

Marshall Adler: 00:37:54

as one of the most sophisticated medical systems in the world.

Marshall Adler: 00:37:59

It's not bringing the suicide numbers down, they're going up, but you

Marshall Adler: 00:38:06

have to be very proactive and get medical, mental health professionals

Marshall Adler: 00:38:14

involved as soon as possible.

Marshall Adler: 00:38:15

If you think there's an issue that could result in suicidal

Marshall Adler: 00:38:18

ideation or suicide attempt.

Steve Smelski: 00:38:22

Thank you for sharing that.

Steve Smelski: 00:38:24

And I know, as a dad who's lost his son.

Steve Smelski: 00:38:29

I used to have the guilt because I felt as his dad, I should have protected him and

Steve Smelski: 00:38:39

I should have kept them out of harm's way.

Steve Smelski: 00:38:41

I should have known.

Steve Smelski: 00:38:43

And you realize there's so many things out there you can't, you

Steve Smelski: 00:38:46

can't keep track of all of them.

Steve Smelski: 00:38:49

So where I actually thought I could protect my son, I found

Steve Smelski: 00:38:53

out the hard way I was wrong.

Steve Smelski: 00:38:54

I couldn't.

Steve Smelski: 00:38:56

So thank you for sharing that today.

Steve Smelski: 00:38:59

And I hope that helps some of the suicide survivors with the guilt that they

Steve Smelski: 00:39:04

carry, because I don't think there's any way after you've lost a child that.

Steve Smelski: 00:39:12

You could ever not realize you had no control to begin with.

Steve Smelski: 00:39:16

So Marshall I'd like to thank you for coming on today's episode and

Steve Smelski: 00:39:20

covering this very difficult topic.

Steve Smelski: 00:39:23

We've got some other things that we'd like to discuss in the future.

Steve Smelski: 00:39:26

And just wanted to say thank you for joining us today.

Steve Smelski: 00:39:29

And Marshall, thanks for sharing your thoughts on the topic.

Marshall Adler: 00:39:33

Well, Steve, thank you so much allowing me to talk again.

Marshall Adler: 00:39:35

It really helps me a lot and you and I have been friends for such a long

Marshall Adler: 00:39:40

time and we've been able to talk about our grief journey together.

Marshall Adler: 00:39:45

And I really always appreciate your friendship and your willingness to

Marshall Adler: 00:39:49

listen and talk about issues that are part of the grief journey.

Marshall Adler: 00:39:54

So thank you for allowing me to talk today.

Steve Smelski: 00:39:58

Thank you everyone.

Steve Smelski: 00:40:00

Have a good week.

Marshall Adler: 00:40:01

Have a good week everybody ,stay well.

Steve Smelski: 00:40:04

Thank you for joining us on hope through grief with your

Steve Smelski: 00:40:07

cohost Marshall Ader and Steve Smelski

Marshall Adler: 00:40:10

We hope our episode today was helpful and informative.

Marshall Adler: 00:40:16

Since we are not medical or mental health professionals, we cannot

Marshall Adler: 00:40:21

and will not provide any medical, psychological, or mental health advice.

Marshall Adler: 00:40:27

Therefore, if you or anyone, you know, requires medical or mental health

Marshall Adler: 00:40:32

treatment, please contact a medical or mental health professional immediately.