Episode 12
The Community Organizer: Dr. Joel C. Hunter - Part II
Our storyteller is back and continuing to share real life experiences of grief, the lessons learned, and finding hope for the future! Dr. Joel C. Hunter, CEO and founder of Community Resource Network, in Altamonte Springs Florida continues our conversation from last week and Episode 11. Today, in Part II, Dr. Hunter takes us through the process of dealing with unanswered questions, the worry of salvation for our lost loved ones, and surviving grief during the #COVID19 global pandemic. Dr. Hunter finishes with a discussion on his commitment to social justice as a decades long civil rights activist, the death of George Floyd. and Black Lives Matter. If like us, you needed a little hope through all of what life is throwing at us right now, you won’t want to miss Dr. Hunter’s hopeful and uplifting attitude shares his heart for humanity with us!
Please don’t miss this special episode of Hope Thru Grief and share it with your friends and family! And, as a special bonus we are providing the video recording of Part I of our conversation with Dr. Hunter on our YouTube channel: https://youtu.be/oRFoTdzkYG4.
To find out more about Dr. Hunters current endeavors visit his website: https://joelhunter.com, on Facebook; https://www.facebook.com/drjoelchunter, and Twitter; https://twitter.com/drjoelhunter.
We welcome your comments and questions! Send an email to hopethrugrief@gmail.com and please share our show with anyone you know that is struggling with loss and grief. You can find us on the internet to continue the conversation!
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Website: http://hopethrugrief.com.
Subscribe & Share: https://hope-thru-grief.captivate.fm/listen
Jordan Smelski Foundation: http://www.jordansmelskifoundation.org
Tune in for new episodes every Thursday morning wherever you listen to podcasts!
Marshall Adler and Steve Smelski, co-hosts of Hope Thru Grief are not medical, or mental health professionals, therefore we cannot and will not give any medical, or mental health advice. If you, or anyone you know needs medical or mental health treatment, please contact a medical or mental health professional immediately. The Suicide Prevention Lifeline number is 1-800-273-8255
Thank you
Marshall Adler
Steve Smelski
Transcript
Hello, this is Marshall Adler with my good
Marshall Adler:friend and cohost Steve Smelski.
Marshall Adler:And I want to thank you so much for listening to part two of our very,
Marshall Adler:very special interview today with Dr.
Marshall Adler:Joel Hunter.
Marshall Adler:We covered very many interesting things in our Part I of the interview, but Part
Marshall Adler:II, I think is going to be a fascinating discussion dealing with many of the
Marshall Adler:issues that are affecting society today.
Marshall Adler:Including, but not limited to the effect of the COVID-19 virus on
Marshall Adler:society and grieving and the effect that the Black Lives Matter movement
Marshall Adler:has had on society and grieving.
Marshall Adler:So again, I want to thank you so much for listening.
Marshall Adler:I hope you enjoy part two of our interview with our very special guest, Dr.
Marshall Adler:Joel Hunter, as much as you enjoyed part one,
Marshall Adler:...It's interesting that you say that.
Marshall Adler:Let me ask you this, I viewed grief as a individual journey and I think what
Marshall Adler:you and Becyk are doing is fantastic.
Marshall Adler:And I feel like Debbie and I are doing the same thing that we know we're grieving
Marshall Adler:as parents, but I also know she's got her journey and I have my journey.
Marshall Adler:Her journey as a mother is different than my journey as a father.
Marshall Adler:And I know Matt's brother David is on his own journey as a sibling.
Marshall Adler:He said something that I never thought about.
Marshall Adler:He said that when parents lose a child, the natural inclination is to have all
Marshall Adler:the empathy go to the parents, because obviously they lost a child, which is
Marshall Adler:true, but a lot of people forget about the siblings and he said something really.
Marshall Adler:He said that hopefully, we do hope this, that he's going to
Marshall Adler:outlive us by decades, obviously.
Marshall Adler:Because his grief is going to be decades longer than our grief
Marshall Adler:because he's 30 years old, I'm 64.
Marshall Adler:And he said that the loss of his, his children that aren't even born
Marshall Adler:yet, knowing his funny, hilarious, uncle Matt will never happen.
Marshall Adler:And he grieves that.
Marshall Adler:And I thought about that and I said that never was on my radar screen.
Marshall Adler:So how has your family's grief journey been different as a unit, you know,
Marshall Adler:from father, mother, and sibling?
Dr. Joel Hunter:Well, um, a couple of things, first of all, it has drawn
Dr. Joel Hunter:us um, So much closer to each other.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, my, all of my sons were each other's best friends.
Dr. Joel Hunter:They went to, they went to the same college, they roomed together.
Marshall Adler:Wow.
Dr. Joel Hunter:They, they lived in the same town.
Dr. Joel Hunter:They, they planted the same church.
Dr. Joel Hunter:They, they, um, I mean, I mean, they were just so close.
Dr. Joel Hunter:As a matter of fact, um, when Isaac, uh, committed suicide, it was his
Dr. Joel Hunter:older brother that discovered the body.
Marshall Adler:Wow.
Dr. Joel Hunter:So it's, it's hard to say how that will affect Josh
Dr. Joel Hunter:the rest of his life, but it will.
Dr. Joel Hunter:There are some bad consequences to this, uh, because, uh, both of my sons now
Dr. Joel Hunter:are divorced, uh, because of, I think, uh, because of the grieving process.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, and, and, um, Um, I mean, they're, they're, they love their kids or,
Dr. Joel Hunter:you know, so, so it's not that it's not that it ruined their whole lives.
Dr. Joel Hunter:But what it did was, um, it made, because they live in the town, we live
Dr. Joel Hunter:in, um, it made them, uh, much more, um, we interact as parents, uh, and sons,
Dr. Joel Hunter:uh, more because of this mutual loss.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, and we process, um, more, um, openly, uh, because we all grew up
Dr. Joel Hunter:together, you know, so some people say, you know, um, you don't raise
Dr. Joel Hunter:your kids, your kids raise you.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And so they have been a part of our growing up, and our understanding
Dr. Joel Hunter:of different aspects of Isaac's life that we didn't understand
Dr. Joel Hunter:before, because they were so close.
Dr. Joel Hunter:So, um, your son's absolutely right.
Dr. Joel Hunter:They will carry this, um, um, into the future.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Uh, Isaac's children.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, they, they, they love his children.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, But there's this angst, there's there's I wish I could be the father
Dr. Joel Hunter:for him, for them that Isaac, what, but they can't, you know, so there's this
Dr. Joel Hunter:ongoing angst and, and, uh, and they, and the kids, you know, love their uncles.
Dr. Joel Hunter:There's some closeness there, but there's, there's this ongoing challenge.
Dr. Joel Hunter:We know how in our minds it should have been, but how do you live plan B?
Dr. Joel Hunter:You know, and so, and so that's, it is very much a challenge Marshall.
Marshall Adler:You know, it's interesting, you mentioned
Marshall Adler:that because I'm a news hound.
Marshall Adler:I love looking at history and Anderson Cooper on CNN, obviously his mother was
Marshall Adler:Gloria Vanderbilt, and some people may or may not know this, but yeah, his older
Marshall Adler:brother died by suicide on July 22nd.
Marshall Adler:1988, which is 30 years to the day before Matt's suicide.
Marshall Adler:And so whenever I watch CNN, he's not on TV on July 22nd, the day we're grieving
Marshall Adler:Matt's, in the Jewish religion, you light a yahrzeit candle, it's a memorial
Marshall Adler:candle at the anniversary of somebody's death and Anderson Cooper's not on
Marshall Adler:TV because I know he's mourning his brother's death, which was 32 years ago.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Wow.
Marshall Adler:And so I talked to Dave, after Matt's passing and I
Marshall Adler:knew of Anderson Cooper's story, and I read an article and then Anderson
Marshall Adler:Cooper's mother was Gloria Vanderbilt.
Marshall Adler:He didn't have to go out and do things, but he did.
Marshall Adler:He started trailing around the world to become a journalist
Marshall Adler:really in honor of his brother.
Marshall Adler:And I looked at Dave and what you said about your brothers is exactly
Marshall Adler:what I think my brothers were like.
Marshall Adler:As different as you can get.
Marshall Adler:Matt was this funny artistic he was a Wikipedia when it came to movies.
Marshall Adler:He was just phenomenal.
Marshall Adler:He wanted to be a movie director that's why he was living in California.
Marshall Adler:And Dave was always an athletic jock.
Marshall Adler:But they love each other and their intersections when they had the
Marshall Adler:common interest was just so close.
Marshall Adler:So, what I told Dave was that you have an opportunity to live your
Marshall Adler:life as a tribute to Matt, and that's what he'd want you to do.
Marshall Adler:And I look at Anderson Cooper as a journalist, has affected so
Marshall Adler:many people, different stories.
Marshall Adler:And I saw an interview with him where he was just talking, he goes, but
Marshall Adler:for his brother dying by suicide, he probably wouldn't become a
Marshall Adler:journalist and take a different life.
Marshall Adler:So, I know what you mean.
Marshall Adler:It's the flip side of the same coin where Dave is going to be grieving,
Marshall Adler:not having his children having this hilarious uncle Matt in their lives.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Yeah.
Marshall Adler:But on the other hand, I do think it's giving him impetus
Marshall Adler:to think that he's got mad on his shoulder every day and want to make
Marshall Adler:them want to make them proud every day.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Yeah.
Dr. Joel Hunter:That's exactly right.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Absolutely.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Right.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Yeah.
Marshall Adler:And hopefully that'll happen.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I believe it.
Marshall Adler:I hope so.
Steve Smelski:Joel, we've had some people approach us and ask, um, they've.
Steve Smelski:So when Shelley and I started grief, a lot of the people had lost
Steve Smelski:spouses or parents or grandparents.
Steve Smelski:There weren't that many that had lost children.
Steve Smelski:And over the last few years, there's been many more that have come through and
Steve Smelski:they seek us out and ask us a question.
Steve Smelski:Their biggest fear is their child didn't know Jesus, and they want to
Steve Smelski:know if they're going to be in heaven.
Steve Smelski:How would you counsel that answer back to them?
Dr. Joel Hunter:God's got this, God's got this.
Dr. Joel Hunter:He made your kid you know.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Your child was fearfully and wonderfully made knit together in his mother's womb.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, and so, um, there's lots of people that don't know Jesus, uh,
Dr. Joel Hunter:but there's nobody, God didn't make.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And so, um, there's several theological things I could give you, you know.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Jesus died for the sins of the whole world on the cross.
Dr. Joel Hunter:He said, father, forgive them for, they know not what they do.
Dr. Joel Hunter:In other words, ignorance, uh, really is a basis for forgiveness.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And so, but mostly just tell them not to worry about this because God loved
Dr. Joel Hunter:that child or that, uh, youngster or person, uh, way more than they did.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And so, um, it's, it's just this matter of, of trust.
Dr. Joel Hunter:You know, when I, when I was growing up and, and, uh, I would meet, um,
Dr. Joel Hunter:religious people that were very well meaning, uh, but again, very
Dr. Joel Hunter:mechanical, uh, in their understanding.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And, and had kind of this zero sum approach to life.
Dr. Joel Hunter:You were the winner or you were the loser.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Yeah.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, and, and, um, thank God um, um, he's not like that.
Dr. Joel Hunter:The Bible says his dream falls on the just and the unjust and, and,
Dr. Joel Hunter:uh, the sunshines on the just and the unjust so on and so forth.
Dr. Joel Hunter:So, part of believing is letting God be God.
Dr. Joel Hunter:You know, not trying to pretend that you're the judge that you can
Dr. Joel Hunter:figure out who's going and who's not.
Dr. Joel Hunter:You know, I, I, uh, I knew Billy Graham and, and, and Billy was, as a matter of
Dr. Joel Hunter:fact, before I said before, I said the benediction at the Democratic National
Dr. Joel Hunter:Convention, I called Billy Graham up and I said, Billy, should I do this?
Dr. Joel Hunter:Cause I was a card-carrying Republican at the time and Billy
Dr. Joel Hunter:said, you're a preacher, aren't you?
Dr. Joel Hunter:I said, yeah, well, when somebody has a preacher to pray, they pray!
Dr. Joel Hunter:That was quintessential Billy Graham, you know?
Dr. Joel Hunter:And I, and I tell you that because when George Bush became a Christian,
Dr. Joel Hunter:um, somebody made a comment uh, about the people who are not saved,
Dr. Joel Hunter:you know, don't make it to heaven.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And, Barbara Bush, I think this is how the story goes said,
Dr. Joel Hunter:we're going to call Billy Graham.
Dr. Joel Hunter:You know, we're just going to call him.
Dr. Joel Hunter:You know, now Billy Graham is the most famous evangelist in all the world.
Dr. Joel Hunter:He's the one who's given all of these, you know, come know Jesus and all of
Dr. Joel Hunter:that kind of stuff, because he wanted people to be secure when they could
Dr. Joel Hunter:be secure in their, their knowledge of salvation, so they call bill Graham.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And Billy Graham said seriously?
Dr. Joel Hunter:I mean, he didn't, he didn't, these are my words.
Dr. Joel Hunter:This is a paraphrase.
Dr. Joel Hunter:But you think you're going to figure out who goes to heaven and who, who
Dr. Joel Hunter:doesn't go to heaven, seriously?
Dr. Joel Hunter:And so even the people who are most earnest, to tell people about their
Dr. Joel Hunter:experience and their assurance of salvation should know best of
Dr. Joel Hunter:all, that this is all up to God.
Dr. Joel Hunter:This is not up to us.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And God knows our hearts.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And, and the Bible says he judges our hearts, not on the outside.
Dr. Joel Hunter:He judges our hearts.
Dr. Joel Hunter:So, um, so I, I I'm fully enthusiastic when it comes to giving
Dr. Joel Hunter:people peace about trusting God.
Steve Smelski:That's great counsel.
Steve Smelski:I always thought that it wasn't supposed to be an exclusive
Steve Smelski:group, he wanted everybody.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Yeah.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Oh yeah.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Oh yeah.
Dr. Joel Hunter:There's an old joke about people, you know, going to heaven and God's
Dr. Joel Hunter:or somebody giving him a tour.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Maybe Moses or somebody, I don't know.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And, and they keep going by this one section of heaven and the tour guide
Dr. Joel Hunter:goes, shhhhh, you know ,be quiet.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And, uh, and then they pass it like two or three times.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Finally, when somebody in the group said, why do we have to be
Dr. Joel Hunter:quiet when we pass that building?
Dr. Joel Hunter:He said, that's the Baptists.
Dr. Joel Hunter:They think they're the only ones here.
Marshall Adler:That's funny.
Marshall Adler:That's great.
Marshall Adler:You know, it's interesting that being Jewish, I've had multiple, very good
Marshall Adler:friends telling me that exact same thing.
Marshall Adler:And you talk about humor and again, my, most of my jokes are older than dirt.
Marshall Adler:So I'll tell you an old, old joke that I always try to use that to me,
Marshall Adler:shows you how wonderful humor is.
Marshall Adler:Cause I've had many people, even in law school and adults telling
Marshall Adler:me that their fearful for my soul because I am Jewish and not Christian.
Marshall Adler:And I would tell them, I said, well, you know, Jesus was Jewish.
Marshall Adler:And they say, uh, yes, I know that.
Marshall Adler:I said, well, do you know how you know that?
Marshall Adler:How, I know that?
Marshall Adler:They say, how do you know that?
Marshall Adler:I said, well, there's obviously three reasons.
Marshall Adler:I know Jesus was Jewish.
Marshall Adler:Um, number one, he lived at home until he was 33.
Marshall Adler:Number two, he went into his father's business, and number three,
Marshall Adler:his mother thought he was God.
Marshall Adler:So it's a real old joke, but I use it as humor and people say, I'm not
Marshall Adler:worried about your soul anymore.
Marshall Adler:And that to me is sort of Joel, what your life has been as such a tolerant,
Marshall Adler:kind, compassionate, clergymen, when the world needs more people like you.
Marshall Adler:But I'm going to ask you a personal question in the sense that you
Marshall Adler:were so beloved and so many people are going to look to you to help
Marshall Adler:them on their journey of grief.
Marshall Adler:How has your journey of grief effected your ability to help others on theirs?
Dr. Joel Hunter:Well, um, let me, let me just point out a couple of things.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I think I've said this in a different, a couple of different ways, but,
Dr. Joel Hunter:but, uh, first of all, um, there's a difference between sympathy and empathy.
Dr. Joel Hunter:You know, sympathy is literally feeling, uh, with people.
Dr. Joel Hunter:You know, your heart goes out to them.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And I'm so sorry you're going through this.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Empathy is, um, I don't know exactly what you're going through,
Dr. Joel Hunter:but I've had my heartbroken, um, in ways I've been devastated.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Uh, I've been, uh, so broken that I, I just had to remember to brush my teeth,
Dr. Joel Hunter:you know, I've been in that much pain.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And so, when somebody faces devastating circumstances like that, you can't
Dr. Joel Hunter:say, I know what you're going through.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Cause everybody's different and you don't know what they're going through.
Dr. Joel Hunter:But you can say, I know what it feels like, um, to, um, to be in
Dr. Joel Hunter:such pain, you can't not only think of anything else you can't think.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And, so I just want you to know that my heart hurts for you.
Dr. Joel Hunter:The other thing that is different is not from your perspective,
Dr. Joel Hunter:it's from their perspective.
Dr. Joel Hunter:When people know that you have suffered, there's a, a credibility of
Dr. Joel Hunter:caring that they bestow on you that you would never bestow on yourself.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I mean, both of us, all three of us, um, because of what we've been
Dr. Joel Hunter:through, people will trust that we have a modicum of, um, understanding and
Dr. Joel Hunter:compassion and caring that people who had pretty much everything in their,
Dr. Joel Hunter:in their life go right, couldn't have.
Dr. Joel Hunter:They don't hold it against them it's just, they couldn't possibly
Dr. Joel Hunter:know what I'm going through.
Dr. Joel Hunter:But when they look at us, they say they can know a piece
Dr. Joel Hunter:of what I'm going through.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And there's a fellowship there.
Dr. Joel Hunter:There's a connection there, um, that I can have with them, because of that.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And so that's, that's increases your capability to care.
Marshall Adler:That's interesting.
Marshall Adler:I, never thought of it that way.
Marshall Adler:It's interesting you mentioned that because being a lawyer, I've had a lot
Marshall Adler:of interaction with people that I know through my professional life, but don't
Marshall Adler:really know personally, because you just see them nine to five in cases.
Marshall Adler:And what you said is so true.
Marshall Adler:I've had people that I've had maybe one case with 10 years ago, call
Marshall Adler:me up or contact me, or want to go to lunch, to talk about Matt's
Marshall Adler:passing and how it affected them.
Marshall Adler:And they'd be tearing up and I realized that they never met Matt.
Marshall Adler:But it's affecting them because they might be worried about a loved one in their
Marshall Adler:life, or they might've been, might've had a loss to that they're not telling me.
Marshall Adler:And definitely it sounds crazy, but it gets street credence to talk to me,
Marshall Adler:and I have some of these people I've known for years and they would call me
Marshall Adler:up and I'd assume it was about a case or something, farthest thing on their
Marshall Adler:mind about this conversation was work.
Marshall Adler:Matt's passing that just allowed me to connect with them on a human basis that
Marshall Adler:I never would have had, but from Matt's passing and for that, I'm thankful.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Yeah, absolutely.
Marshall Adler:I really am.
Marshall Adler:And it's just funny how you talk about unintended consequences and you have to,
Marshall Adler:again, Steve and I talk all the time that in some ways it's a gift to realize that
Marshall Adler:I think all of our sons are looking over us and giving us gifts to help others.
Marshall Adler:I think all Isaac, Jordan, and Matt spent their life doing that and their gift to
Marshall Adler:us is allowing us to continue that work.
Marshall Adler:I really believe that.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Yeah.
Steve Smelski:I know Jordan would be getting them in trouble, but.
Steve Smelski:He could instigate anything.
Steve Smelski:It's the challenge that untaken that's the problem.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Yeah.
Steve Smelski:He would challenge you to do anything.
Steve Smelski:Joel, I wanted to switch gears a little bit.
Steve Smelski:This year is unlike any other in the last 100 years.
Steve Smelski:I saw today, a lady survived COVID and she was a baby, and she survived 1918's flu.
Steve Smelski:And cancer.
Steve Smelski:I saw, she just had her a hundred and second birthday.
Steve Smelski:So we haven't seen anything like this in a hundred years, at least.
Steve Smelski:Grief is difficult enough in a normal year.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Yeah.
Steve Smelski:But when you can't go to the hospital to be
Steve Smelski:with them and hold their hand.
Steve Smelski:And it doesn't even have to be a COVID case.
Steve Smelski:They won't let anybody in for any case.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Right.
Steve Smelski:When you can't have a service after, to have all your
Steve Smelski:friends come to support you, you can only have 10 at a funeral.
Steve Smelski:Um, It's very difficult to, to try and help somebody through this process.
Steve Smelski:Cause grief is not, so it has to be done on its own and, and yet,
Steve Smelski:that's what we're ordered to do.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Yeah.
Steve Smelski:I don't know if you've got any, any hints of wisdom that
Steve Smelski:you could share that would, cause we try and we get on video with them.
Steve Smelski:We just started Grief Share last night.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Right.
Steve Smelski:I just talked to two people today who just lost loved ones since COVID
Steve Smelski:started and they went into lockdown and,
Dr. Joel Hunter:Yeah.
Steve Smelski:And they're all alone.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Yeah, gosh.
Steve Smelski:They have nobody with them.
Steve Smelski:They, they live by themselves.
Steve Smelski:They're working remotely and they're struggling.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Oh, my goodness.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Well, you're right, Steve, this, this is one of the greatest
Dr. Joel Hunter:challenges, um, of our lifetimes.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Partly because we are social animals.
Dr. Joel Hunter:We are, we are meant to live life together and that's just how we're wired.
Dr. Joel Hunter:We are people of physicality.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I mean, I love Zoom, I love the time it saves me but, it doesn't
Dr. Joel Hunter:replace in person presence.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I remember, um, talking years ago I was a senior pastor of one of the largest
Dr. Joel Hunter:United Methodist churches in Indiana.
Dr. Joel Hunter:This is like 40, almost 50 years ago now.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And we had a person on our staff that was a, um, she was ahead of
Dr. Joel Hunter:our counseling staff actually.
Dr. Joel Hunter:She was brilliant PhD, clinical psychologist and her husband was on
Dr. Joel Hunter:the mound, this was a church softball league, on the mound pitching,
Dr. Joel Hunter:drops dead of a heart attack.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Young guy, young guy that she was, she was in her thirties, I think, early thirties.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And so I, I wanted to learn what was valuable in a time of grief
Dr. Joel Hunter:and after some distance, after some time, I asked her if I get asked
Dr. Joel Hunter:her a question and she said, yeah.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And I said, when you were going through that with your husband, I
Dr. Joel Hunter:said, was there anything that was said that was particularly helpful?
Dr. Joel Hunter:And she paused for a minute.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I'll never forget this.
Dr. Joel Hunter:She was trying to think back.
Dr. Joel Hunter:She must have taken two or three minutes in silence.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And she looked at me and she said, I don't remember anything that was said.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I just remember the hugs.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And I thought, oh boy, there, there it is.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Now there was, there was some things that were helpful that were said
Dr. Joel Hunter:to me at Isaac's passing, but, but honest to goodness, when you
Dr. Joel Hunter:take away the hugs, it's tough.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And so all I can do is pray for a vaccine, um, because nothing can replace
Dr. Joel Hunter:actual physical presence and just being with people, being with people.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And so, I, yeah, I don't know how to do that other than,
Dr. Joel Hunter:um, and, and golly, Steve.
Dr. Joel Hunter:When, when our, um, elderly are set up in nursing homes and
Dr. Joel Hunter:can't be visited by their kids.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I can't, I can't get my arms around that.
Dr. Joel Hunter:So, anyhow, no, there's, there's no real good word I can give you
Dr. Joel Hunter:on that because nothing replaces the physical touch, or the physical
Dr. Joel Hunter:presence of somebody who loves you.
Marshall Adler:Right.
Steve Smelski:I think that is so true.
Steve Smelski:And it's interesting you gave that answer because Jordan was a hugger
Steve Smelski:and he taught our whole family to hug.
Steve Smelski:My family was not huggers until Jordan came along.
Dr. Joel Hunter:That's awesome, awesome
Marshall Adler:You know, it's, it's so difficult to be on this journey
Marshall Adler:because as we know it's not linear that I am amazed how I will get hit with a
Marshall Adler:wave of grief that I never saw coming.
Marshall Adler:Like I tell people that it's two years since Matt's passing and I say that
Marshall Adler:the waves of grief are less frequent, but the wave height never changes.
Marshall Adler:When I get hit by that, it's just like, I got the call.
Marshall Adler:Like Matt was 3000 miles away when he passed away and I got a call
Marshall Adler:from the coroner in San Diego.
Marshall Adler:And obviously I'll never forget that and I'll be driving on I4 or
Dr. Joel Hunter:Yeah.
Marshall Adler:Something and a song will go on and it's just like, I got
Marshall Adler:this Thunderbolt of grief from left field and doing this in the age of a global
Marshall Adler:pandemic, it is tough because obviously the only one I could hug here is Debbie.
Marshall Adler:Debbie's my wife and Matt's mother, obviously.
Marshall Adler:And we talk about when we have pangs of grief and sometimes we'll be watching
Marshall Adler:something like, at Matt's funeral, I did a eulogy that I wanted people that
Marshall Adler:didn't know Matt to know about him.
Marshall Adler:About half the people that were at the funeral were Matt's
Marshall Adler:friends, half the people were our friends that didn't know Matt.
Marshall Adler:So I quoted a lot of famous movie scenes cause again Matt was just phenomenal.
Marshall Adler:He was like a savant when it came to movies and I quote the scene from
Marshall Adler:the Wizard of Oz where the wizard is giving the Tin Man the plastic
Marshall Adler:heart, because he didn't have one.
Marshall Adler:And he, the quote that he makes is, um, "a heart's not practicable until
Marshall Adler:they're unbreakable, but a heart is not judged by how much you love, but
Marshall Adler:by how much you're loved by others".
Marshall Adler:And I closed the eulogy by saying that the life that Matt led would
Marshall Adler:have made the Tin Man in the Wizard of Oz proud because he was so loved.
Marshall Adler:But when I see anything about Judy Garland or Ray Bolger or the Wizard of Oz, I get
Marshall Adler:hit with a Thunderbolt of grief because forever, you know, Matt was so funny,
Marshall Adler:these little things laugh because, he was just such a amazing person when it
Marshall Adler:came to movies that I never knew this.
Marshall Adler:Like everybody knows wizard of Oz, Somewhere Over The Rainbow.
Marshall Adler:I'm a Jewish guy from Buffalo, New York.
Marshall Adler:Matt, as a young person told me, do you know, Harold Arlen, that wrote
Marshall Adler:the song Somewhere Over The Rainbow was a Jewish guy from Buffalo?
Marshall Adler:And I go, I didn't know that.
Marshall Adler:And these little obscure facts sort of make me laugh.
Marshall Adler:So when I get a hit of grief, I'll think about Harold Arlen.
Marshall Adler:I didn't know Harold Arlen wrote that.
Marshall Adler:I didn't know he was from Buffalo.
Marshall Adler:I didn't know he was Jewish.
Marshall Adler:Matt knew those things.
Marshall Adler:So, let me ask you, how do you deal with your thunderbolts
Marshall Adler:of grief and you get hit?
Dr. Joel Hunter:I cry.
Dr. Joel Hunter:You know, I just cry.
Dr. Joel Hunter:A lot of times we have pictures, obviously of Isaac still in the house, there's a
Dr. Joel Hunter:picture of Isaac in my office and I can pass that picture a hundred times and the
Dr. Joel Hunter:hundred and first time I just look, and it all comes back and I just, I have to
Dr. Joel Hunter:have a time where I just, I just grieve.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And I talk to him, say, I miss you.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, and, uh, but, um, but there's, there's no way to, I don't share it with people.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I don't talk to people about it.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I just, I just miss him.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I just set for a while and I hurt, um, because, um, I
Dr. Joel Hunter:really, you're exactly right.
Dr. Joel Hunter:The waves come less frequently, but they're just as high, just as hard, so you
Dr. Joel Hunter:just gotta take it in and that's a part.
Dr. Joel Hunter:You know, hurt is the price of love.
Dr. Joel Hunter:If we didn't, if we weren't hurting, that means we didn't love.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And to the degree that you love someone is the degree, which
Dr. Joel Hunter:you will always miss them.
Dr. Joel Hunter:They can't be replaced.
Dr. Joel Hunter:There's always going to be that hole.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, and, um, you can that, one of the things that, that, that were,
Dr. Joel Hunter:um, that helped me when, when Isaac passed is somebody told to us.
Dr. Joel Hunter:You know, the pain will never get any less, but you'll get bigger around it.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And it was so helpful for me because you do, you grow in your perspective
Dr. Joel Hunter:and, and, and you grow in your ability, but that pain never gets any less.
Marshall Adler:Wow.
Marshall Adler:It's intellectually, I always think I could have, my defenses ready on certain
Marshall Adler:days, like Father's Day or Matt's birthday or the day of his passing.
Marshall Adler:I'm sort of, of the mindset now I shouldn't even continue that delusion.
Marshall Adler:My defenses are going to be wiped away by the tears and the
Dr. Joel Hunter:Yeah.
Marshall Adler:Feeling of grief in about two seconds.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Yeah, absolutely right.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Absolutely right.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Father's Day is absolutely the worst day of the year for me first.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I mean, I can, I'm okay on his birthday.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I'm okay on holidays.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I'm okay on, even on the day of his passing, but Father's Day, I just sit,
Dr. Joel Hunter:I sit in my chair in the cemetery.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And we just spend time together on Father's Day, it's
Dr. Joel Hunter:just, it never gets better.
Dr. Joel Hunter:As a matter of fact, it's maybe a little tougher.
Dr. Joel Hunter:But the rest of the life, the rest of the year, gets better and I've, and I've, and
Dr. Joel Hunter:I can, I can put things in perspective.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, but yeah, I'm with you.
Dr. Joel Hunter:No defenses.
Dr. Joel Hunter:No
Marshall Adler:deffenses.
Marshall Adler:No.
Steve Smelski:Nope.
Steve Smelski:Father's Day is the toughest.
Steve Smelski:Its almost like the other ones pushed it all to father's day and they're
Steve Smelski:a little easier and that's tough.
Steve Smelski:Yeah.
Steve Smelski:Yeah,
Dr. Joel Hunter:absolutely.
Steve Smelski:I wanted to ask you, you mentioned president Barack
Steve Smelski:Obama and he had given you a call.
Steve Smelski:Most people don't get any insight into that part of the world.
Steve Smelski:Do you have a story or a favorite story you could share with us?
Dr. Joel Hunter:Oh, golly.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, I've got lots of them.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, I don't, I don't know that, um, Uh, well, first of all, just let me say this.
Dr. Joel Hunter:President Obama is a wonderful and decent man and loves his family like crazy.
Dr. Joel Hunter:You know, when Michelle came down to Northland, for one of her, uh,
Dr. Joel Hunter:um, yeah, there was the exercise thing she did, get healthy events.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I spent quite a bit of time with him, didn't spend as much time with her.
Dr. Joel Hunter:But in my introduction, I said, whenever I talked with the president and I
Dr. Joel Hunter:said, how's Michelle and the girls?
Dr. Joel Hunter:His eyes just lit up.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I mean, this was a man who so genuinely loves his wife and his
Dr. Joel Hunter:family that it just shows on his face.
Dr. Joel Hunter:It's just remarkable.
Dr. Joel Hunter:He was always building her up and always giving her credit for everything.
Dr. Joel Hunter:So, um, so he's a man of tremendous humor.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I mean, he made me laugh out loud.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, and, uh, but, but the main thing about him is I don't know that I've
Dr. Joel Hunter:ever met a man with the depth of attention to others instead of himself.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And the depth of compassion.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I remember one time, I just have to tell you one story and I'm
Dr. Joel Hunter:down to 17% on my, my computer.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, I, it, it was at the very beginning of, uh, the, um, Or toward the
Dr. Joel Hunter:beginning of the presidential debates.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And there was a debate held at Messiah college and I was to ask the
Dr. Joel Hunter:first question to Hillary Clinton.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And I knew Senator Clinton from before and I had asked her before
Dr. Joel Hunter:and other debates questions.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And so I'm asking her this question and she's answering the question
Dr. Joel Hunter:I'm, um, out in like the first row of people who were asking questions.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And, I feel this presence just creeping up the aisle, its like doing an army crawl.
Dr. Joel Hunter:She's answering, she got done answering the question and I feel
Dr. Joel Hunter:this tap on, on my, on my arm.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And, uh, and I looked down and there's a guy down there, he says, Senator
Dr. Joel Hunter:Obama's wondering if you'd like to come and pray with him before he goes on.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And I said, sure, I'd be glad to do that.
Dr. Joel Hunter:So, after the attention shifted to the other part of the room, I slipped out.
Dr. Joel Hunter:We went down to the catacombs that are under Messiah college.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And I'm just thinking to myself, okay, there's going to be, it's going to be
Dr. Joel Hunter:typical, there's going to be 50 of us.
Dr. Joel Hunter:We're all going to be laying hands on him and, you know, taking turns.
Dr. Joel Hunter:It was just me and him in the hallway.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And, and, uh, and I re I remember that week, especially, of course, every week,
Dr. Joel Hunter:he had just gotten beat up by the press.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I mean, just pummeled by the press.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And so I went up to him and I said, Senator, thanks for the
Dr. Joel Hunter:opportunity to pray with you.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I said, I know, I know you've had a rough week.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Uh, he, um, and he said, no, he said the single mom, who's trying to feed
Dr. Joel Hunter:her kids and just had a rough week.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I'm fine.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And I thought that's him in a nutshell.
Dr. Joel Hunter:He was, I could never, you know, when I said, what do we pray about, it was always
Dr. Joel Hunter:about somebody else, never about him.
Dr. Joel Hunter:So anyhow, that's just kind of, that's kind of who he was and who he still is.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Two hours before my last sermon two hours for my last sermon, I
Dr. Joel Hunter:said, that'd be the last story.
Dr. Joel Hunter:You know, preachers, we always got another one.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Two hours, two hours he had before he, before he went into politics.
Dr. Joel Hunter:He was a community organizer.
Dr. Joel Hunter:When he came out of Harvard, he was a community organizer.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And so two hours before my last sermon at, uh, Northland, I had already determined
Dr. Joel Hunter:I was gonna work with the homeless and become a fake community organizer.
Dr. Joel Hunter:So he calls me and he said, what are you doing?
Dr. Joel Hunter:And I said, I said, I have no idea.
Dr. Joel Hunter:You were a community organizer.
Dr. Joel Hunter:What am I doing?
Dr. Joel Hunter:So it was just, it was one of those kind of relationships
Dr. Joel Hunter:that just was a friendship.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Nothing pretentious.
Dr. Joel Hunter:We didn't try to, I never tried to talk politics with him.
Dr. Joel Hunter:It was very personal, uh, mutually supportive.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Uh, but I can tell you he's a wonderful man.
Marshall Adler:Wow.
Marshall Adler:It's a great story.
Steve Smelski:That is a great story.
Marshall Adler:Quick question.
Marshall Adler:I know my computer runs out of juice and it drives me insane,
Marshall Adler:looking at those little numbers go down so I'll try to speak fast.
Marshall Adler:I'll just say this, you know, growing up in Buffalo, New York, everybody
Marshall Adler:was a Democrat, just the way it was.
Marshall Adler:I remember when I was six years old, I went to see John F.
Marshall Adler:Kennedy at Buffalo city hall on my father's shoulders, I was six years old.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Wow.
Marshall Adler:And when he was assassinated, I was seven years old
Marshall Adler:and the crossing guard at my school told me, he says, Johnson's president.
Marshall Adler:I go who's Johnson?
Marshall Adler:And I look back now, but that was my first introduction to grief.
Marshall Adler:Because I just knew Kennedy was always president during my life.
Marshall Adler:And so.
Marshall Adler:It sort of got me involved in social issues and I know you, your
Marshall Adler:life is such an exemplary life.
Marshall Adler:And I did some research how, in the sixties, did Martin
Marshall Adler:Luther Kings passing affect you?
Marshall Adler:And how was that dovetailed into what's happening with Black Lives
Marshall Adler:Matter and George Floyd and I'm very interested in how this affected you.
Marshall Adler:Absolutely.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I grew up in an all white town in the Midwest.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I did not know at the time that we had an ordinance that no black
Dr. Joel Hunter:or colored people could be in that town, could live in that town.
Marshall Adler:Wow.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And that was, that was not unusual in
Dr. Joel Hunter:the Midwest back in that day.
Dr. Joel Hunter:But when I went to college, it was in the sixties and I immediately got
Dr. Joel Hunter:involved in the civil rights movement.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And when Martin Luther King Jr was assassinated, I came to a crisis of faith.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And because I was trying to make things right by getting the right people
Dr. Joel Hunter:in office and, and then it hit me.
Dr. Joel Hunter:It's not about getting the right people in office.
Dr. Joel Hunter:It's about who we want to be as a people.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And it's about including those who have been left out.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And so on the occasion of his assassination, I gave my whole life
Dr. Joel Hunter:to following Christ and including people who had not been included and
Dr. Joel Hunter:its kind of been my story ever since.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And it's why I'm involved today, uh, with the rebirth of the civil rights
Dr. Joel Hunter:movement, uh, hopefully in a new way.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I was just on the phone the other day with Congressman Clyburn, Jim
Dr. Joel Hunter:Cliburn and he was reminiscing about John Lewis and hit some of their
Dr. Joel Hunter:last, their last conversations.
Dr. Joel Hunter:He was with him very close to the time he died and they were reminiscing
Dr. Joel Hunter:about, um, the civil rights movement in the sixties, which I was a part of.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And I can remember, um, many of the things he was saying.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, but I have great hope that the horrible circumstance of the killing of
Dr. Joel Hunter:George Floyd will set us on a path of becoming a nation that includes people,
Dr. Joel Hunter:um, because of their differences.
Dr. Joel Hunter:That was the promise at the beginning, you know, of our country, all men are
Dr. Joel Hunter:created equal and endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And so I just, want to spend the rest of my life, um, including people who weren't
Dr. Joel Hunter:being included, which was the story of Jesus, and is the story of how I think
Dr. Joel Hunter:we can become a great nation again.
Marshall Adler:I'll speak out of turn here.
Marshall Adler:I want to thank you for doing that on behalf of a grateful nation,
Marshall Adler:because I'll just say that, you know, I, you, you recently wrote
Marshall Adler:an op ed, um, That amazed me.
Marshall Adler:It was titled have courage to intervene against racist aggression.
Marshall Adler:And you made a comment in there that it's historial malfeasance not to
Marshall Adler:address the issue of George Floyd.
Marshall Adler:And I was so impressed that you wrote that and put that publicly.
Marshall Adler:And again, I think your life is just a testament of the best of
Marshall Adler:religion, America, and humanity.
Marshall Adler:And as we talked about, I think Isaac's really proud of you.
Marshall Adler:I hope Matt's really proud of me.
Marshall Adler:And I know Jordan's really proud of Steve.
Marshall Adler:But for those three wonderful people, we've not had this wonderful
Marshall Adler:opportunity to talk and I hope your computer's not running out of juice
Marshall Adler:as I'm saying this, I don't want to get kicked, get cut off here.
Marshall Adler:I'll say that because I want to thank you so much for talking to us today
Marshall Adler:because it just meant so much to me personally, because from afar, I've always
Marshall Adler:respected you and getting a chance to meet you even through the technology that
Marshall Adler:exists, it's really been a experience I'll remember the rest of my life.
Marshall Adler:I want to thank you so much for doing it.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Thank you, Marshall.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And thank you, Steve.
Dr. Joel Hunter:It's been wonderful talking with both of you.
Steve Smelski:Joel, I just wanted to say that you've helped Shelly and
Steve Smelski:I so much, and we really appreciate you taking the time to meet us
Steve Smelski:and you put us on the right path.
Steve Smelski:And I don't know, I think Shelly shared with you, you turned us on to
Steve Smelski:Grief Share at Northland now we're leading it at our church at Journey.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I love that.
Steve Smelski:And we owe it to you and we'd like to say thank
Steve Smelski:you for actually taking the time and understanding where we're at.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Well, thank you.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Thank both of you.
Dr. Joel Hunter:You made my day.
Marshall Adler:Well, thank you so much again, but for Grief Share,
Marshall Adler:I never would have met Steve and we never would have done this.
Marshall Adler:So again, it's the known and the unknown and I'm thanking you for all of them.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Thank you very much.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Alright.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Have a good one y'all.
Steve Smelski:You guys too.
Marshall Adler:Stay well.
Steve Smelski:Wow.
Steve Smelski:I would just like to thank Dr.
Steve Smelski:Hunter for coming on today and actually sharing his heart and
Steve Smelski:opening up his thoughts with us.
Steve Smelski:All of the things that we discussed, we actually discussed
Steve Smelski:a lot of different things.
Steve Smelski:Death of his son, death of his granddaughter, focusing on
Steve Smelski:completing the journey for them.
Steve Smelski:I really feel like he helped Shelly and I get on the right path after Jordan died.
Steve Smelski:He took the time to meet with us and, um, I think his, his thoughts that he shared
Steve Smelski:with us, the questions he answered for us just got us on the right path, uh,
Steve Smelski:for healing and going through our grief.
Steve Smelski:How about you, Marshall?
Marshall Adler:I think the amazing thing about Dr.
Marshall Adler:Hunter is not only the totality of the wonderful, purposeful,
Marshall Adler:life that he's led helping others.
Marshall Adler:But the fact that throughout his whole life and the present time he's shown
Marshall Adler:incredible bravery to speak out for what he felt was right in general,
Marshall Adler:and in particular dealing with basic human rights and basic civil rights.
Marshall Adler:And Lord knows our world needs more people who are willing
Marshall Adler:to show the bravery that Dr.
Marshall Adler:Hunter has to do that.
Marshall Adler:And the world is a much better place because of his actions.
Marshall Adler:And for that, I cannot thank him enough.
Steve Smelski:I agree with those comments.
Steve Smelski:And we'd also like to thank him for his thoughts and insights into a completely
Steve Smelski:non-normal year of 2020, as we've all been dealing with COVID for the last several
Steve Smelski:months, we've got to hear some of his insight on that and some thoughts for us.
Steve Smelski:I would just like to mention all the different things that Dr.
Steve Smelski:Hunter is involved with, um, including being the founder and chairman of
Steve Smelski:the Community Resource Network, which works to support all of the homeless
Steve Smelski:organizations throughout central Florida.
Steve Smelski:He's the author and creator of the Devotional Minute, which
Steve Smelski:airs every morning on Z88 radio.
Steve Smelski:He and his son, Dr.
Steve Smelski:Joel Hunter do a Bright Side podcast, which is released once a week.
Steve Smelski:Shows run 20 to 30 minutes.
Steve Smelski:He's the leader of Power Talks on TV 45 and the idea of Simple Help, and for
Steve Smelski:all of the good things that he does for all of us in central Florida, we'd both
Steve Smelski:like to say thank you very much, Dr.
Steve Smelski:Hunter, for joining us and sharing your heart today.
Marshall Adler:Absolutely.
Marshall Adler:It was an honor to have Dr.
Marshall Adler:Hunter as a guest.
Marshall Adler:We really appreciate it.
Steve Smelski:Thanks everybody for joining us on Hope Thru Grief.
Marshall Adler:Thank you so much and look forward to talking to you soon.
