Episode 11
The Community Organizer: Dr. Joel C. Hunter - Part I
Have you ever wanted to listen to a renowned storyteller describe their journey of grief to you by way of a series of short stories? Please meet Dr. Joel C. Hunter, CEO and founder of Community Resource Network, in Altamonte Springs Florida. In today’s episode Dr. Hunter takes us through his earliest memories of grief and then shares the story of the loss of his granddaughter and son. Dr. Hunter describes the added pain of double grief and how he and his wife Becky have been living the past 7 years as a tribute to their son and granddaughter. Dr. Hunter finishes this Part I episode with a clear answer on the always difficult “Why” question. His answer may not be what you expected.
Marshall and Steve discuss these topics and more with Dr. Hunter as they find common ground in their collective grief journeys from each losing a son too soon. Please don’t miss this special episode of Hope Thru Grief and share it with your friends and family. Be sure to join us next week for Part II of the conversation with Dr. Joel C. Hunter!
Many of you may know Dr. Hunter as the Senior Pastor of Northland Church in Longwood for an amazing 32 years, you can find out more about Dr. Hunters current endeavors by visiting his website: https://joelhunter.com, and connect on Facebook; https://www.facebook.com/drjoelchunter, and Twitter; https://twitter.com/drjoelhunter.
We welcome your comments and questions! Send an email to hopethrugrief@gmail.com and please share our show with anyone you know that is struggling with loss and grief. You can find us on the internet to continue the conversation!
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Marshall Adler and Steve Smelski, co-hosts of Hope Thru Grief are not medical, or mental health professionals, therefore we cannot and will not give any medical, or mental health advice. If you, or anyone you know needs medical or mental health treatment, please contact a medical or mental health professional immediately. The Suicide Prevention Lifeline number is 1-800-273-8255
Thank you
Marshall Adler
Steve Smelski
Transcript
Hello everybody.
Steve Smelski:And welcome to today's podcast I'm with my cohost adn good friend, Marshall Adler.
Marshall Adler:Hello, everybody.
Marshall Adler:Hope you're doing very well today.
Steve Smelski:So for today's episode, we've got a special guest that
Steve Smelski:we've invited in and he graciously accepted to come on today and
Steve Smelski:share some, some stories with us.
Steve Smelski:We have Dr.
Steve Smelski:Joel C Hunter, who is the founder and chairman of the Community
Steve Smelski:Resource Network, Minute Devotional, The Bright Side Podcast, Power
Steve Smelski:Talks on TV 45, and Simple Help.
Steve Smelski:He's the former senior pastor at Northland church in Longwood, Florida, and was a
Steve Smelski:member former member of the president of Barack Obama's advisory council on faith
Steve Smelski:based and neighborhood partnerships.
Steve Smelski:Dr.
Steve Smelski:Hunter.
Steve Smelski:Welcome.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Thank you.
Dr. Joel Hunter:It's good to be with you.
Marshall Adler:Doctor before we start.
Marshall Adler:I'd just like to, uh, thank you so much personally, for not only being our guest
Marshall Adler:today, but I want to thank you for being a national treasure as an American, a
Marshall Adler:member of the clergy and as a human being.
Marshall Adler:Although I never had the privilege of meeting you prior to today, I've
Marshall Adler:long admired your lifelong advocacy for peace tolerance and compassion.
Marshall Adler:You were an example of someone who looks to bring out the best in humanity.
Marshall Adler:And for that, I want to thank you for all the people that you know, and
Marshall Adler:all the people that you don't know.
Marshall Adler:So I hope today's conversation will be a part of your legacy, helping people.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Well, thank you, Marshall.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I hope so, too.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, and the subject that you all are discussing today is one that,
Dr. Joel Hunter:Marshall and I know personally, um, and of course, Steve, um, with your
Dr. Joel Hunter:son, you know, the grief, uh, as well.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, and so we're all in this together.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Let me change my mind on the whole Dr.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Hunter thing, call me Joel.
Dr. Joel Hunter:We can't, we can't, we can't be, we can't be talking about it, this
Dr. Joel Hunter:personal and using the titles.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Okay?
Dr. Joel Hunter:Let's just go with first name, and, um, and thanks for inviting me on this is,
Dr. Joel Hunter:uh, this has been a long part of my life.
Dr. Joel Hunter:My earliest remembrances, um, are that I lost my dad when I was four years old.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, and I still remember my aunt picked me up and held me over the
Dr. Joel Hunter:coffin and I'm four years old.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And, um, and, but you had to know her.
Dr. Joel Hunter:She was, she was a little bit crazy, um, but really neat person.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And she said, Joel, I want you to do something.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I want you to touch him.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And I thought, oh my goodness, first of all, don't drop me, cause
Dr. Joel Hunter:I'm going to be in that coffin.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And secondly, what do you mean?
Dr. Joel Hunter:And so I did, I touched him and of course, It was just cold.
Dr. Joel Hunter:The corpse was cold.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And she said, she said, you know, I had you do that because I want
Dr. Joel Hunter:you to know he's not in there.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, he's with God now.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And, um, this is his body and we're, we're grateful, um, that, um, that he,
Dr. Joel Hunter:um, And I can't remember exactly what she said, but we're, we're happy for him.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, and, and so as I, as I worked through that as a four year old, I mean, theres
Dr. Joel Hunter:not a lot of work for a four year old accept that my dad isn't hear anymore.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, but yeah, my earliest remembrances of grief, we're kind of.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I miss him.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I'm worried about my mom.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, I don't know how we're going to make it because we weren't rich to begin with.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, ,but I'm okay for my dad because my aunt explained that the essence of
Dr. Joel Hunter:life isn't contained in a physical body.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And, and so, for me at the beginning, grief was a mixed bag.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, it didn't take away any of the personal pain, um, or the
Dr. Joel Hunter:fear about, okay, how do you go on and live life without somebody
Dr. Joel Hunter:you always thought you'd have.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, but yet in the midst of that, there was a sense of, you know, There's more
Dr. Joel Hunter:to this than what's right in front of me.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Uh, and I'm, and I am glad for him, um, because it must be great there.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, and, and so, and then as growing up, when I was growing up, somebody
Dr. Joel Hunter:told me, I didn't know where I got this, but somebody told me that when people
Dr. Joel Hunter:die, they become a star in the sky.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Well, of course, you know I was, what, I was four years old,
Dr. Joel Hunter:so, so I thought, well, okay.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And so I'd go to bed and I'd look out my window and I'd pick out a star.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And I just talked to my dad.
Dr. Joel Hunter:You know, that's how I went to sleep every night and just talking to my dad.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, and so again, um, it was, it was part of my grieving process to somehow
Dr. Joel Hunter:identify the, the, the essence of, of life that never dies and to have
Dr. Joel Hunter:that as a part of my ongoing life.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, and so, um, in, in the more recent, um, hurt and tragedies of my life,
Dr. Joel Hunter:uh, that part really never went away.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Because it's been a part of my life as long as I can remember.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And so I think that helped.
Marshall Adler:Joel, let me ask you this because I really appreciate you talking
Marshall Adler:about your life because I look at my life.
Marshall Adler:My parents lost two children, two brothers, um, I didn't
Marshall Adler:know either one of them.
Marshall Adler:One was older than me, one was younger than me, they both lived about two or
Marshall Adler:three years old and they passed away.
Marshall Adler:And my mother to the day she passed away still grieved for my
Marshall Adler:two brothers that I didn't know.
Marshall Adler:And I just knew growing up that the loss of a child was a
Marshall Adler:different, special type of grief.
Marshall Adler:And all of our listeners know we got three fathers here that have experienced that.
Marshall Adler:And with my passing of my son, Matt and my passing of my mother, two
Marshall Adler:days later, I unfortunately he had to deal with double grief and I'll, I'll
Marshall Adler:tell you, I've said this many times, my mother was the greatest mother
Marshall Adler:anybody could ever have, like, she was the quintessential Jewish mother.
Marshall Adler:She worried about me my entire life.
Marshall Adler:She was a Bellevue nurse in New York city.
Marshall Adler:So before the coronavirus came into the world, I was told to wash my hands
Marshall Adler:my entire life, that's nothing new.
Marshall Adler:My mother told me to wash my hands a hundred times a day,
Marshall Adler:even when I was in my sixties.
Marshall Adler:So this is nothing new for me.
Marshall Adler:So my, my mother prepared me very well for this pandemic, but, but I wasn't
Marshall Adler:prepared obviously for grieving the loss of my son and my mother within two days.
Marshall Adler:And I'll tell you that Matt's passing was July 22nd, 2018.
Marshall Adler:So it's a little over two years now, and I still haven't grieved my mother.
Marshall Adler:I don't have enough room to do that.
Marshall Adler:I hope I will, but I don't.
Marshall Adler:And if you could open up, because I know that you also dealt with
Marshall Adler:double grief, am I correct?
Marshall Adler:You lost your granddaughter and your son.
Marshall Adler:If you could comment on that, I'd be very interested in
Marshall Adler:your, in your thoughts on that.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Well, um, yeah, gosh.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, well, I, I lost my granddaughter first.
Dr. Joel Hunter:She was five years old.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, we just had gotten home from a family vacation, all of the
Dr. Joel Hunter:grandkids, all of the, um, and, uh, Um, and I got a call the next day.
Dr. Joel Hunter:She had fallen on, on the, on the, uh, on our vacation.
Dr. Joel Hunter:We did they get any of it.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Uh, but they took her to the hospital and there was a, uh, a
Dr. Joel Hunter:lemon sized tumor inside her head.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, and we were so rocked back because there wasn't really any warning.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, and so the first, interestingly enough, the first call I got, and I don't
Dr. Joel Hunter:know, you still don't know how, he found out about it, but president Obama called
Dr. Joel Hunter:me, um, and he said, Joel, this is Barack.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I just found out what in the, what can I do?
Dr. Joel Hunter:What can Michelle and I, Michelle and I are praying, what can I do?
Dr. Joel Hunter:I said, I, and I just burst into tears.
Dr. Joel Hunter:You know?
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, I said, there's, there's nothing.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, they say, um, that, that can be done, uh, because they had, they have
Dr. Joel Hunter:analyzed the um, stage four glioblastoma.
Dr. Joel Hunter:It was, it was inoperable.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Well, it wasn't inoperable it just was the aggressive type.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And, um, and so I just, I had spent so much time.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Uh, trying to pastor him and that he re kind of reversed the role
Dr. Joel Hunter:and he said, now, wait a minute.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I want you to know you're not alone in this.
Dr. Joel Hunter:God's with you in this, don't lose your faith.
Dr. Joel Hunter:You know?
Dr. Joel Hunter:And, and so it was just, it was a helpful call.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Just after that I called a friend of mine, um, Francis Collins, who was
Dr. Joel Hunter:the head of the Human Genome project.
Dr. Joel Hunter:By the time this happened, he was ahead of the NIH, the largest uh, scientific
Dr. Joel Hunter:research, um, organization in the world.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, and, and I said, Francis, what can we do?
Dr. Joel Hunter:What, what, what the best?
Dr. Joel Hunter:I just, the best science.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And he, and he said, Joel, I'm so sorry.
Dr. Joel Hunter:He said, there's no protocols for this she's five years old.
Dr. Joel Hunter:There's there's nothing that I can tell you that's gonna,
Dr. Joel Hunter:um, have, um, a significant chance of helping the situation.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And so I went from, okay, is there any medical help?
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, um, is there any hope?
Dr. Joel Hunter:And I still remember the day the doctor came in and told, um,
Dr. Joel Hunter:my son and his wife and my wife and I were in that room as well.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, that this is terminal and we did do an operation.
Dr. Joel Hunter:The tumor came right back and she was dead and within 10 weeks.
Dr. Joel Hunter:But, but the point of this is, is that.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I had available for me all the help there is um, and they had no answers.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, and, and, and it, it helped me to understand that you can't
Dr. Joel Hunter:manage everything you can't, sometimes there's just no help.
Dr. Joel Hunter:There's no answers.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, uh, because as a president of the United States and the head of NIH
Dr. Joel Hunter:can't help um, and the, the terrific doctor at Arnold Palmer can't help,
Dr. Joel Hunter:you know, then, then it's, it's it's pretty well, and of course we prayed.
Dr. Joel Hunter:We asked God for a miracle.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Of course we would.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, God's asked us to do that.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Just ask me, you know, um, but sometimes His answer is no.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, and so we went through that process, um, and, and, um, Isaac, who was my
Dr. Joel Hunter:son who was more like me than any of my three sons, he was the preacher.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, He took this so hard.
Dr. Joel Hunter:He took Ava's death so hard.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, and the rest of us were grieved as well.
Dr. Joel Hunter:But, but you know, we got all of these messages and you, you know, this,
Dr. Joel Hunter:Steve, Steve, and you know, this, uh, Marshall people come in and they tell
Dr. Joel Hunter:you how much they meant then how, how they were, we're reminded of the value
Dr. Joel Hunter:of prayer and the value of family and the value of, you know, and so they, and
Dr. Joel Hunter:so we thought, well, even at five years old, uh, she accomplished a mission.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, and sometimes you have a five-year mission, and sometimes your mission is
Dr. Joel Hunter:long, but she accomplished the mission.
Dr. Joel Hunter:So we, we could live with that.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, and as you know, you're, you're, you're constantly reminded of her,
Dr. Joel Hunter:uh, reminded of them in little ways.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And, um, and, and slowly it becomes from a moment of pain to a moment of
Dr. Joel Hunter:,man I'm glad I knew her, you know, man, I'm glad she was a part of my life.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, but then Isaac, um, I come from a long line of alcoholics.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, and so I, I just have never, we've never had it in the house, we
Dr. Joel Hunter:know, you know, um, we, we've kind of got this addictive personality.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Anyhow, I don't do anything halfway.
Dr. Joel Hunter:You know, if I'm, if I'm in, I'm in, you know, if I'm not, I'm not,
Dr. Joel Hunter:um, But Isaac, uh, had become, um, an alcoholic and we didn't know it.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And, and because it was really high functioning alcoholic.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And then there came a point where everything just broke apart at once.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, and, and, and, and being one of the premier pastors in Central Florida, um,
Dr. Joel Hunter:he not me, he was, he was so ashamed.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And of course that drives you right back into your addiction.
Dr. Joel Hunter:The shame um, and so, um, uh, he went, you know, um, from, yeah, I think I
Dr. Joel Hunter:can do this, I can, I can come back.
Dr. Joel Hunter:He resigned his church, um, and, and struggled, um, a,
Dr. Joel Hunter:had a series of bad decisions.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, and, uh, but he, he was on what I think it was about a three day bender, um,
Dr. Joel Hunter:and you know how alcoho is a depressant and when you're depressed, you just think
Dr. Joel Hunter:my life's always going to be like this.
Dr. Joel Hunter:There's no hope I might as well do the right thing for my kids
Dr. Joel Hunter:and get them insurance money.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Uh.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I might as well relieve the world of the burden that I am . And
Dr. Joel Hunter:so, um, he took his life.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And that was a very different dynamic for me.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, um, because with a five year old you can't, it's not something that you
Dr. Joel Hunter:say, well, is there something I did?
Dr. Joel Hunter:Is this something I could have said?
Dr. Joel Hunter:Is there something, some difference I could have made, uh, with a five year old
Dr. Joel Hunter:with a brain tumor there's not a lot of, but when somebody takes their own life,
Dr. Joel Hunter:there is a natural questioning, you know?
Dr. Joel Hunter:I wonder if I could have made a difference and, um, but Becky and I, and this was
Dr. Joel Hunter:another thing that was very apparent.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, my son and his wife eventually got a divorce because, um, something like
Dr. Joel Hunter:death of a child's death will either drive you together or drive you apart.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And they had two different ways of grieving.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, and, and, and, and she of course wanted him to grieve in her way.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And so there was this kind of wedge.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, um, Becky and I were kind of the opposite.
Dr. Joel Hunter:We, we, we had a way of grieving, but it was, we'll talk to each other if
Dr. Joel Hunter:we need to um, but we'll encourage each other and work together,
Dr. Joel Hunter:um, to honor the one who passed.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And so it drove us together.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, and so.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, as we, as we worked our way through this, and it's been, um, years
Dr. Joel Hunter:now, um, um, as we worked our way through this, um, we found ourselves,
Dr. Joel Hunter:uh, with two main sources of hope.
Dr. Joel Hunter:One is, um, our faith has meant everything to us.
Dr. Joel Hunter:The fact that we really believe God loves us.
Dr. Joel Hunter:We really believe God loves everybody.
Dr. Joel Hunter:We really believe God doesn't lose anything.
Dr. Joel Hunter:We really believe God isn't surprised by anything.
Dr. Joel Hunter:We really believe that, um, all things work together for good.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Somehow, even when we can't see, um, we, we believe together that somehow in God's
Dr. Joel Hunter:plan, um, that was a good plan for, um, the future that Isaac would have had.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, you know, part of what we thought is, what if he would have gotten
Dr. Joel Hunter:into a car drunk and killed a child?
Dr. Joel Hunter:Yeah.
Dr. Joel Hunter:It, he couldn't possibly have lived with that.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And, and he was getting in cars drunk.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And so, and so we, maybe this is just mental acrobatics trying to make things
Dr. Joel Hunter:better, but we, we really believe, um, that, that, um, somehow in God's larger
Dr. Joel Hunter:plan that we will understand someday that, um, This was part of God's goodness.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Because we believe in a goodness we can't see, um, and not
Dr. Joel Hunter:dependent on our feelings.
Dr. Joel Hunter:But as your original question was, did two of them coming in a row have an impact?
Dr. Joel Hunter:And the answer is absolutely.
Dr. Joel Hunter:There's, you know Life is full of really hard things.
Dr. Joel Hunter:But when there's something that, um, emotional trauma or emotionally
Dr. Joel Hunter:traumatizing, um, is almost like, it's like when you go into
Dr. Joel Hunter:shock, you can't feel because you couldn't take it If you could.
Dr. Joel Hunter:It's it's, it's like multiple, um, losses of people that you loved.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I think you're right.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Marshall.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I think your body knows I can take one of those, uh, one of those at a time, but I
Dr. Joel Hunter:can't take both of them at the same time.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Because, because I wouldn't be able to function.
Dr. Joel Hunter:So anyhow, I think, I think that that very much is the case.
Marshall Adler:Well, it's interesting what you said,
Marshall Adler:cause I can really relate to it.
Marshall Adler:Let me just tell you that we were at the funeral home, picking
Marshall Adler:out Matt's headstone when I got the call, my mother passed away.
Marshall Adler:And, my mother and my father and Matt were all hilarious.
Marshall Adler:And I looked to, Debbie and I said, if this wasn't our life and so serious, this
Marshall Adler:would be a black comedy that my mother, my son, and my father would, would laugh
Marshall Adler:at because it's just so ridiculous.
Marshall Adler:So we literally went from hearing my mother passed to seeing Matt's
Marshall Adler:plot, which was next to my father and gonna be next to my mother.
Marshall Adler:And then it hit that we're literally looking at the plot
Marshall Adler:where our thirty-two-year old son is going to be laid to rest.
Marshall Adler:And I looked at Debbie and I said, we've got three choices here.
Marshall Adler:The first choice is this can be too much.
Marshall Adler:We could just say we're tennis players, so we could say game set, match.
Marshall Adler:And I said, that is an option that I don't think is a viable one, but I'm
Marshall Adler:throwing all the three options out.
Marshall Adler:The second option is to what I call, be of the living dead.
Marshall Adler:I've known of loved ones that have sustained loss in their
Marshall Adler:life and never gotten over it.
Marshall Adler:And the third was to live our lives as a tribute to Matt to be the most productive,
Marshall Adler:functioning, kind and compassionate people, we can be for the time we have
Marshall Adler:on this earth as a tribute to our son.
Marshall Adler:And I'll tell you that I, I, you know, as a lawyer I would do, I always do
Marshall Adler:research and obviously know very well, your wonderful reputation, but
Marshall Adler:I saw the wonderful things people said about Isaac and it's something that
Marshall Adler:I think what you did is what I did.
Marshall Adler:I think you have to do it because again, we're all here for a short time.
Marshall Adler:Whether it was my parents that lived into their nineties or my son that
Marshall Adler:lived to age 32, It's all finite.
Marshall Adler:And I think that for me, the bigger picture is I always try
Marshall Adler:to teach my two boys lessons.
Marshall Adler:And then the height of irony is that Matt ended up teaching me the biggest
Marshall Adler:lesson in his passing, that we're here and make the most of the time,
Marshall Adler:because I have been inundated with Matt's stories from people that have
Marshall Adler:known him after he passed telling me how he positively effected his life,
Marshall Adler:that I probably never would have heard.
Marshall Adler:And that to me it speaks volumes that he knew his time was finite and he
Marshall Adler:was going to make the most of it.
Marshall Adler:And I think that's what I learned.
Marshall Adler:And it's sure.
Marshall Adler:Sounds like you've learned also.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Absolutely, absolutely.
Dr. Joel Hunter:The natural order of thing, when you lose a kid, um, and Steve knows what we're
Dr. Joel Hunter:talking about here, natural order of things is, your kids carry on your work.
Dr. Joel Hunter:You know, um, but when you lose a kid, do you feel responsibility to kind of
Dr. Joel Hunter:carry on their, work, their life and, and do something that would honor them.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And so, uh, Becky and I now go to the church that Isaac planted.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, and, and the two remaining, he planted with two friends, um, both of whom we
Dr. Joel Hunter:watched grow up in our living room.
Dr. Joel Hunter:But to be a part of that church, and to continue what he started, um, is just
Dr. Joel Hunter:a part of how we live our life now.
Dr. Joel Hunter:In order to, um, kind of fulfill, um, just a small part of, of
Dr. Joel Hunter:what his dreams would have been.
Steve Smelski:Joel you, uh, you, you touched on something about not
Steve Smelski:knowing and sometimes God's answer is no, which when it's, your, someone
Steve Smelski:is very hard to understand, get your arms around, and even accept.
Steve Smelski:It does take a little while.
Steve Smelski:I've had so many people that have come through our grief group
Steve Smelski:that asked the question of why?
Steve Smelski:What, what do you, what do you tell them?
Steve Smelski:Knowing that sometimes the answer is no and as much as you want to
Steve Smelski:say that to them, it's actually not the right thing to communicate.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Yeah.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Well, first of all, it's, it's important to know that most people
Dr. Joel Hunter:when they, when they ask why, um, it's, it's, it's just, a cry of pain.
Dr. Joel Hunter:It's a cry of, I feel lost.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I, I, I just want something stable, something to, um, and so
Dr. Joel Hunter:most of the time, um, I don't, I wouldn't even hazard a guess.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I mean, I can play around in my mind with my, with reasons for, for my, um, um, um,
Dr. Joel Hunter:relatives passing, I couldn't possibly pretend to give them a reason for theirs.
Dr. Joel Hunter:So, the answer is always, I have no idea.
Dr. Joel Hunter:But I do believe because scripture says, um, someday we will know fully,
Dr. Joel Hunter:even as we have been fully known.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I do believe that someday when God lets us in on the full picture of how life,
Dr. Joel Hunter:uh, unfolded, um, that everything will be contained and it will make more
Dr. Joel Hunter:sense than we ever could have imagined.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I think just like everything else, we, we only have a partial understanding
Dr. Joel Hunter:just has had again and now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, and, and so my answer is always, uh, I can't pretend to have the mind of God.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I can't pretend to even comprehend why things happen as they do.
Dr. Joel Hunter:It's way too complex, way too mysterious for me.
Dr. Joel Hunter:All I can say, um, is that we have a God who created us and who loves
Dr. Joel Hunter:us more than we can possibly know.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And who loved the one we lost more than we can possibly know.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And, and, and, and so I, I, all I can do is place my hope in that.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And that's because I, I, let me say one more thing.
Dr. Joel Hunter:When people say why too many terms, religious people and
Dr. Joel Hunter:Christians are the worst at this.
Dr. Joel Hunter:You know, cook up some sort of a religious platitude that just makes
Dr. Joel Hunter:you want to punch him in the face.
Dr. Joel Hunter:You know, like God wanted a flower for His garden or something like that.
Dr. Joel Hunter:God, look, God can make the flowers on His own.
Dr. Joel Hunter:You know He doesn't need my kid.
Dr. Joel Hunter:So.
Dr. Joel Hunter:So we've got to resist trying to answer people, why?
Dr. Joel Hunter:Because we don't know!
Steve Smelski:I'm guilty of that as well.
Steve Smelski:I was, I do think that way sometimes.
Steve Smelski:So, I do want to say that after Jordan died, we were completely lost.
Steve Smelski:Uh Jordan's our only son.
Steve Smelski:House went from busy, busy, noisy, noisy to silent, and we, um, We
Steve Smelski:sought out some counseling, which it's hard to tell if it was helping
Steve Smelski:and Shelly actually called Ruth your secretary and ask if we could get in.
Steve Smelski:We had no idea if you would accept us to come in to see you.
Steve Smelski:And she called on a Thursday and you got us in on Monday
Steve Smelski:before you were flying to DC.
Steve Smelski:I can't thank you enough for that, but she asked you one question.
Steve Smelski:The first question, the hard question, which I've had a couple others ask
Steve Smelski:me, how would you, how would you counsel them when they ask is my
Steve Smelski:son's death punishment for our sins?
Steve Smelski:I remember asking, I remember you, you answering and it was like, it, it
Steve Smelski:completely changed my view on things.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Well, let me give you the Christian answer
Dr. Joel Hunter:and I'll give you the general understanding of God answer as well.
Dr. Joel Hunter:The Christian answer is, um, absolutely not.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Christ on the cross, bore the punishment for all of our sins.
Dr. Joel Hunter:So we don't get punished for our sins.
Dr. Joel Hunter:That's already taken care of.
Dr. Joel Hunter:But even, even, or in addition to that, if you're not a Christian.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, if you believe in a creator, God, um, this could be, and we could take
Dr. Joel Hunter:off on a whole comedy routine here.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Okay.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Who gets the ax today?
Dr. Joel Hunter:Because, and for what, you know?
Dr. Joel Hunter:Who's going to compare here, you know, and who gets, you know?
Dr. Joel Hunter:What's sin gets what punishment and all of that.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I mean, there's a general, you know, karma thing and, and, and, you know, you
Dr. Joel Hunter:report your so yeah, but punishments, no.
Dr. Joel Hunter:There's just there's we don't belong to a shallow vindictive
Dr. Joel Hunter:God, that would take what we would deserve out on somebody else.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Out on a whole bunch of somebody else's . Because somehow we messed up.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And show me, show me a day when we don't mess up.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I mean, gee whizz there'd be nobody left if that was the price.
Dr. Joel Hunter:So, no, it's not, but, what you speak to is a very real dynamic
Dr. Joel Hunter:because all of us grew up with guilt.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And we have parents that reinforced that, unfortunately, you know,
Dr. Joel Hunter:now look what you've done.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And, and so we begin to think that everything is our fault.
Dr. Joel Hunter:But life is, is much too complex for that.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And so we've got to let ourselves off the hook.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Because there's no way we can manage the universe and revolving around us so that
Dr. Joel Hunter:if we mess up, everybody else gets it.
Dr. Joel Hunter:That just doesn't happen.
Marshall Adler:Joel, its real interesting what you mentioned about the why question.
Marshall Adler:I was going to ask you about you living your life as a tribute to
Marshall Adler:your granddaughter and your son, which obviously you have in such a
Marshall Adler:wonderful, kind, compassionate way.
Marshall Adler:But, I actually want to ask you something real different.
Marshall Adler:Like you really made me laugh, which is wonderful because I, we mentioned
Marshall Adler:before we started, we were talking about laughter such a wonderful gift.
Marshall Adler:And I, I will tell you even at Matt's funeral I laughed a lot because we were
Marshall Adler:telling funny Matt stories and to this day when Debbie, my wife and my other son,
Marshall Adler:David, talk about Matt, we laugh a lot.
Marshall Adler:And one thing that you brought up about the why was as a, such a world,
Marshall Adler:famous clergymen, it was very, it really resonated with me what you
Marshall Adler:said, because I remember what my mother said about my grandfather.
Marshall Adler:Like my, I grew up in Buffalo, New York ,and from the time I was born to the
Marshall Adler:time I was four years old, I lived right across the street from my grandparents,
Marshall Adler:my father's parents lived right across the street, which wasn't great for
Marshall Adler:my mother to say the least having her in-laws right across the street.
Marshall Adler:But I liked it because I got, every day, my mother walked across the street and
Marshall Adler:I got to know my grandfather very well.
Marshall Adler:He was a, uh, Jewish immigrant came from Austria.
Marshall Adler:Adler means Eagle in German, so it's an Austrian name.
Marshall Adler:And he was an interesting guy.
Marshall Adler:And after I became an adult, I asked my mother how she dealt
Marshall Adler:with the loss of her two children.
Marshall Adler:And she told me a story that after her second son died, she talked to my
Marshall Adler:grandfather, my father's father and what he said when she asked the why question,
Marshall Adler:he said, well, this is a tragedy.
Marshall Adler:You've lost two children.
Marshall Adler:There's no two ways about it.
Marshall Adler:It's tragic.
Marshall Adler:But it would be no less of a tragedy if it happened to the next door neighbor.
Marshall Adler:And what makes you think that you're exempt from tragedy?
Marshall Adler:Because you're not.
Marshall Adler:And that, when she first said it, she said she was very taken aback.
Marshall Adler:And then as she got older, she realized it really helped her understand.
Marshall Adler:And after losing Matt, it really resonated with me because, you know,
Marshall Adler:I'm a big sports fan and I go over statistics and analyze football.
Marshall Adler:I'm a big Buffalo bills fan.
Marshall Adler:And I was looking at averages and I always thought, well,
Marshall Adler:my parents lost two children.
Marshall Adler:Statistically, the odds of that ever happening to our family
Marshall Adler:would be so minuscule, that'd be off the radar screen and nothing
Marshall Adler:have, I never have to worry about.
Marshall Adler:Obviously that theory didn't hold and looking at what my grandfather
Marshall Adler:said when I first heard it, I thought it was sort of Spartan and coarse
Marshall Adler:for her, for somebody to say that.
Marshall Adler:But now I realize it actually was very helpful.
Marshall Adler:It was helpful to my mother and helpful to me after losing Matt, which I never
Marshall Adler:really thought about that beforehand.
Marshall Adler:So I, you know, hearing somebody like you in such honesty saying, you
Marshall Adler:know, I can't give you a definitive answer on the why question.
Marshall Adler:Is wonderful, cause it made me laugh, which I'll always
Marshall Adler:thank you for making me laugh.
Marshall Adler:I love laughing.
Marshall Adler:But, also it gives me sort of more insight into my grandfather.
Marshall Adler:Again, this was a Austrian immigrant, not well-schooled in a technical sense,
Marshall Adler:but he sorta had smarts about life.
Marshall Adler:And here we are so many years later talking about him.
Marshall Adler:That's something really resonates with me.
Marshall Adler:So I was it.
Marshall Adler:I just, you, what you think about that?
Dr. Joel Hunter:I love that.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And your and your grandfather very wise, man, that's a, that's really a great
Dr. Joel Hunter:point, uh, and puts things in perspective.
Dr. Joel Hunter:But let's talk about humor just for a second, because, and how important
Dr. Joel Hunter:it is, especially for people who are going through rough times.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I mean, humor is kind of our way of saying, you're not gonna win this one.
Dr. Joel Hunter:You know, you're not going to take me down.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna take my life out of, um, circulation,
Dr. Joel Hunter:uh, because I'm hurting.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And it's very important to hang around people that make you laugh.
Dr. Joel Hunter:It's very important to remember the funny times that you, that you had with those
Dr. Joel Hunter:that you, that you, um, that you lost.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Because Becky and I, um, Isaac was one of these, just walk across the street
Dr. Joel Hunter:and your shirt, tails out of your pants.
Dr. Joel Hunter:You don't, you don't know how it got out, you know?
Dr. Joel Hunter:And when he was a kid.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I don't care.
Dr. Joel Hunter:You could, you could knot triple knot his shoes, they'd always just come loose!
Dr. Joel Hunter:You know?
Dr. Joel Hunter:So, after he passed, you know, Becky and I love to walk together.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Um, and so we were walking around Cranes Roost and, uh, and her shoelace had
Dr. Joel Hunter:come undone and she'd go Isaac, you know, and like, like he untied my shoes.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Like I can't, I can't keep.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And, and so there was all, it's always so important, um, to honor
Dr. Joel Hunter:somebody by not, um, taking yourself out of the enjoyment of life.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Joy, you know, scripture says grief lasts for the night,
Dr. Joel Hunter:but joy comes in the morning.
Dr. Joel Hunter:It's okay to grieve, but, it's the natural order of things that the grief
Dr. Joel Hunter:would not subtract your joy forever.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And to be able to laugh at their old jokes.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And I was just over, uh, we were Becky and I were just over at, his older
Dr. Joel Hunter:brothers house last night and, uh, um, and she was putting something away
Dr. Joel Hunter:in the refrigerator and, uh, and he said, I'm glad to see you covered that.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Now if Isaac would have been here, he'd have just stuck it in there without
Dr. Joel Hunter:a cover, gone, and been all dried up.
Dr. Joel Hunter:You know, and we would've laughed because he never, you know, he was just messy.
Dr. Joel Hunter:He was just messy.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And, and so anyhow, that, that humor is super important.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Some people think that if they, if they're laughing, uh, there's
Dr. Joel Hunter:somehow sacreligious or it's dishonoring, its just the opposite.
Dr. Joel Hunter:It's life-giving.
Marshall Adler:It really is.
Marshall Adler:You know, I, it's funny, you mentioned that about Isaac.
Marshall Adler:I think Isaac and Matt were kindred spirits, because we, I never knew
Marshall Adler:about Velcro shoes until Matt, could I, to this, I don't even know if he
Marshall Adler:ever learned how to tie his shoelaces.
Marshall Adler:I mean, it's just, it's just they were always flopping, so I know
Marshall Adler:about Velcro well before anybody else did, because we just knew
Marshall Adler:with Matt it was part of the deal.
Marshall Adler:But, it's all these little things that you think about that I think make
Marshall Adler:the journey of grief in some ways, a lesson that we all have to learn.
Marshall Adler:You know, I'll, I'll, I'll say this, like talk to Steve many, many times.
Marshall Adler:You know, Steve and I met through Grief Share, and we've obviously
Marshall Adler:bonded because we've both lost sons.
Marshall Adler:And now we have the three of us who here who've lost sons and it's.
Marshall Adler:Some ways looking at it, but for the grief that we all had,
Marshall Adler:we wouldn't be laughing today.
Marshall Adler:And I think Jordan and Isaac and Matt want us all to laugh because
Marshall Adler:I think all of them were funny.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Yeah.
Marshall Adler:And I think they're all smiling saying, keep it up, guys.
Marshall Adler:Keep on laughing.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Yeah.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Amen to that.
Dr. Joel Hunter:You're right.
Steve Smelski:I have no doubts.
Steve Smelski:Jordan was a jokester and he'd tell you the same joke and try and get
Steve Smelski:you to laugh every time until you said, it's not funny anymore Jordan.
Steve Smelski:And he did have Velcro sneakers and he used Crocs.
Steve Smelski:So as long as he didn't have to tie his shoes, he was good.
Steve Smelski:So that was Jordan.
Steve Smelski:Joel, you had touched on something about not knowing God's overall plan for us.
Steve Smelski:It's, so it's like, we're looking from the underneath of the quilt
Steve Smelski:and you have no idea what it looks like on top until we get there.
Steve Smelski:And then he reveals everything.
Steve Smelski:So from this, this side, it looks messy, it looks unkept.
Steve Smelski:It doesn't feel right.
Steve Smelski:Sometimes you question many things.
Steve Smelski:I struggle with the why question until I realized why not us?
Steve Smelski:Somebody said, to us, why not you?
Steve Smelski:I, I did not have an answer for that.
Steve Smelski:But, I have noticed as we've moved further down the road, how many things and how
Steve Smelski:many doors He's opened for us, that I know is not the way the world works.
Steve Smelski:And every time we question whether we're on the right path or we're doing
Steve Smelski:the right thing, he'd open another door and business does not work that way.
Steve Smelski:I, we, we both been exposed to it and we're looking at each
Steve Smelski:other, like this is not normal.
Steve Smelski:Have you seen many things since the loss of your granddaughter and your son?
Steve Smelski:Cause it's changed your path and what you were going to work on?
Dr. Joel Hunter:Absolutely.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I, yeah, and I, uh, Becky and I often say, Um, we live in surreal life, you know,
Dr. Joel Hunter:it's kinda, it's kinda like Forrest Gump.
Dr. Joel Hunter:You know, the movie where he, you know, he just shows up in history and he's
Dr. Joel Hunter:looking around, you know, this little guy never would have gotten there on his own
Dr. Joel Hunter:you know, that's how I feel my life is.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I never would've gotten there on my own.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And, and, um, so I do think that there's this plan um, that is way beyond, uh,
Dr. Joel Hunter:what we can imagine and everything that we, um, we tend to dismiss as
Dr. Joel Hunter:circumstantial or luck or, or whatever.
Dr. Joel Hunter:I, I, I don't wanna, I don't want to get spooky about this cause, cause
Dr. Joel Hunter:this can get into superstition, um, and we're not superstitious.
Dr. Joel Hunter:But yet if you don't think that you have had some divine intervention
Dr. Joel Hunter:in your life, some door opening, somebody saying something at just
Dr. Joel Hunter:the right moment where you knew that was a message from God for you.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Then you're probably not paying attention.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And, and so Becky and I have, uh, again, had this incredible
Dr. Joel Hunter:life and it's continued.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Mmm Mmm.
Dr. Joel Hunter:Some of it directly proportional to, um, our grief because it's,
Dr. Joel Hunter:it's helped us empathize in ways that we never would have.
Dr. Joel Hunter:It's opened our hearts in ways we, we never had the ability to open them before.
Dr. Joel Hunter:There's, there's, there's a, there's a, there's a way that your heart opens
Dr. Joel Hunter:because it's been forcibly broken.
Dr. Joel Hunter:You would never break it that way yourself, but it's, it's it wasn't you.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And then God, uses that for somebody else's benefit.
Dr. Joel Hunter:And, and many other people's benefit and, and, you know, you never would
Dr. Joel Hunter:have been that good of a servant or that good of a helper without that event.
Dr. Joel Hunter:So, so absolutely there's a purpose in all of this and we will see the
Dr. Joel Hunter:fullness of it and we will wonder.
Dr. Joel Hunter:We'll stand in awe at how not only detailed was the plan for our life, but
Dr. Joel Hunter:deeply personal was the plan for our life.
Dr. Joel Hunter:It's, uh, I I'm, I'm looking forward to it.
Steve Smelski:Wow, Marshall, that was a really uplifting
Steve Smelski:message that we got from Dr.
Steve Smelski:Hunter.
Steve Smelski:I think this is a great place to, uh, to end the part one of
Steve Smelski:our interview with him today.
Steve Smelski:And I'm just, I'm really taken aback by some of his comments and how much
Steve Smelski:he was willing to share with us.
Steve Smelski:What, what part did you think was, was so impactful to you?
Marshall Adler:Steve, the thing that amazed me so much of Dr.
Marshall Adler:Hunter was not only how he's led his life in its entirety, which obviously
Marshall Adler:has been an example for all of us humans on this planet to follow.
Marshall Adler:But particularly how he's led his life as a tribute to his
Marshall Adler:granddaughter and his son.
Marshall Adler:In the sense that after Matt passed, I've talked about this many times
Marshall Adler:before that Debbie and I had to make a decision as to what we're going
Marshall Adler:to do with the rest of our lives.
Marshall Adler:Nobody ever sees the loss of a child as something that's going
Marshall Adler:to happen to them until it does.
Marshall Adler:And I knew that for the only path we could follow was to make the rest of our
Marshall Adler:days on this earth, a tribute, to Matt, to continue all the good work that he
Marshall Adler:could no longer do because he wasn't here.
Marshall Adler:And Lord knows Dr.
Marshall Adler:Hunter as done amazing things throughout his entire life, but in particular, after
Marshall Adler:the passing of his granddaughter and his son that has been such a wonderful tribute
Marshall Adler:to them that's absolutely amazed me.
Marshall Adler:And it's something that I will want to emulate for the rest of my life.
Marshall Adler:Absolutely.
Steve Smelski:I think it's very insightful that he was able to
Steve Smelski:continue working, leading his church, keeping everything going.
Steve Smelski:I remember how Jordan's passing brought Shelly and I to our knees.
Steve Smelski:We were, we weren't in a good place.
Steve Smelski:We were really struggling.
Steve Smelski:It was hard to understand.
Steve Smelski:I'm not sure how he was able to keep everything together
Steve Smelski:and continuing helping others.
Steve Smelski:And I know he actually took an hour out of his busy schedule, going back and
Steve Smelski:forth to DC every week to meet with us.
Steve Smelski:And he didn't know us from anybody else, but he took the time and effort.
Steve Smelski:I can't wait for everybody to hear part two.
Steve Smelski:So, next week, we're going to have some, uh, extra items included in part two.
Steve Smelski:You're not going to want to miss it.
Steve Smelski:You're going to make sure you come back the next Thursday to listen to
Steve Smelski:part two of our interview with Dr.
Steve Smelski:Hunter.
Steve Smelski:We actually get into some discussions around #COVID19.
Steve Smelski:Get into some discussions around Black Lives Matter.
Steve Smelski:His work, with the civil rights movement back in the early years for him.
Steve Smelski:And, uh, we just want to say thank you for joining us for this episode
Steve Smelski:and please tune in for part two.
Marshall Adler:Thank you so much.
Steve Smelski:Thank you for joining us on Hope Thru Grief with your cohosts
Steve Smelski:Marshall Adler and Steve Smelski.
Marshall Adler:We hope our episode today was helpful and informative.
Marshall Adler:Since we are not medical or mental health professionals, we cannot,
Marshall Adler:and will not provide any medical, psychological, or mental health advice.
Marshall Adler:Therefore, if you or anyone, you know, requires medical or mental health
Marshall Adler:treatment, please contact a medical or mental health professional immediately.
