A Comfort In Times Of Trouble: Pastor Harvey Carpenter

Steve Smelski: 00:00:03

Hello everybody and welcome to today's episode of Hope Thru Grief.

Steve Smelski: 00:00:08

I'm one of your cohost, Steve Smelski, and I'm here with my good

Steve Smelski: 00:00:11

friend and cohost Marshall Adler.

Marshall Adler: 00:00:14

Hello everybody.

Marshall Adler: 00:00:15

I'd like to thank you all for listening to what will be an

Marshall Adler: 00:00:17

extremely interesting episode today.

Steve Smelski: 00:00:19

As Marshall just alluded to, we've got

Steve Smelski: 00:00:21

a, uh, a guest speaker today.

Steve Smelski: 00:00:24

His name is pastor Harvey Carpenter.

Steve Smelski: 00:00:27

He's the associate pastor for Care and Outreach at journey

Steve Smelski: 00:00:30

Christian Church in Apopka, Florida.

Steve Smelski: 00:00:32

Harvey, welcome today.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:00:34

Well, thank you very much.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:00:35

It's a joy to be here and I'm looking forward to spending some

Harvey Carpenter: 00:00:37

time with the both of you today.

Steve Smelski: 00:00:40

So maybe you could tell us as the associate pastor for Care and

Steve Smelski: 00:00:43

Outreach at Journey, what are, what are your responsibilities for the church?

Harvey Carpenter: 00:00:48

Well, my primary role falls into the area

Harvey Carpenter: 00:00:51

of caring for people's needs.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:00:53

And so when someone has a family member that needs a visitation, let's

Harvey Carpenter: 00:00:58

say in the hospital, or perhaps with hospice, uh, maybe, maybe even a

Harvey Carpenter: 00:01:03

funeral, uh, even a wedding sometimes then I'm the guy that gets called to

Harvey Carpenter: 00:01:07

go and, and spend time with the family.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:01:10

And share with them and extend some compassion and,

Harvey Carpenter: 00:01:14

and hope and prayer usually.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:01:16

So that's my role primarily.

Steve Smelski: 00:01:19

So we were talking a little bit before we started the show

Steve Smelski: 00:01:22

and you've told us that you have a journey of grief that you've been on,

Steve Smelski: 00:01:28

would you mind sharing that with us?

Harvey Carpenter: 00:01:30

Sure I'd be happy to.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:01:32

In 2002, my mother passed at a relatively young age.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:01:37

She was only 58 years old and she, uh, she suffered from a rather

Harvey Carpenter: 00:01:43

long sickness, cancer sickness, breast cancer that ended up going

Harvey Carpenter: 00:01:49

into her bones and into her brain.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:01:52

And it was a rather difficult time.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:01:54

And so we watched her deteriorate over that period of time.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:01:59

And that was very hard as you might imagine.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:02:01

She was vibrant, she was upbeat, she was, uh, she was a go getter, she was,

Harvey Carpenter: 00:02:05

uh, uh, she was a brilliant lady, really a principal at a school for mentally

Harvey Carpenter: 00:02:11

and physically handicapped children.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:02:13

And, uh, became nationally known, uh, because of the programming

Harvey Carpenter: 00:02:16

and the work that she did there.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:02:18

The parents loved her because she was done doing such good work for their children,

Harvey Carpenter: 00:02:23

and she just gave her life to that.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:02:25

And, um, I think perhaps that's where I get some of my empathy for other

Harvey Carpenter: 00:02:29

people is through a, my mother as well.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:02:32

And, but she struggled for four years and then, um, then she passed and

Harvey Carpenter: 00:02:37

the whole family was gathered around her bedside when she did pass away.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:02:42

And that was, uh, that was good for us to be there, to be able to say goodbye

Harvey Carpenter: 00:02:46

and to spend those last moments with her.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:02:50

Uh, I don't know that it makes the grieving any easier, but it

Harvey Carpenter: 00:02:53

certainly makes the regret less.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:02:56

And so we spent that time with her there and she passed.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:03:00

She was a compassionate soul and.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:03:02

Uh, really, really do miss her.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:03:04

The grief that followed of course was, was challenging.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:03:07

There were difficult days.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:03:09

There were, uh, periods of time when you felt a little emotionally overwhelmed,

Harvey Carpenter: 00:03:14

and maybe even somewhat disconnected from myself or even from life.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:03:19

But, uh, I didn't, I don't think I grieved deeply, uh, over time.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:03:23

It, about six years later, when God called me into another role at the church.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:03:29

That's I think I started doing a lot of funerals that I really

Harvey Carpenter: 00:03:32

started connect dealing with the grief that I had over my mother.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:03:36

And so, um, So that's, that's God's role for me right now.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:03:40

Interestingly enough, my mother was one of six children.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:03:43

She came from a rather large family, from a poor family, really.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:03:47

And so her oldest sister was the last to pass just a number of years ago.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:03:52

She, uh, and she called me before she passed and she told me she was with

Harvey Carpenter: 00:03:55

hospice and she said, Harvey, I want to, they'll let you know that the time is

Harvey Carpenter: 00:03:59

coming for me and, um, I'm going to be seeing your mother soon and wow, what

Harvey Carpenter: 00:04:04

a, what a revelation that was, it's not the kind of call you expect to receive.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:04:08

And she said to me, is there anything you'd like for me to tell your mother when

Harvey Carpenter: 00:04:11

I see her and I'm like, wow, now that's that now that's a unique conversation

Harvey Carpenter: 00:04:16

to have with someone isn't it?

Harvey Carpenter: 00:04:18

So I thought it through and I said, yeah, you see my mother in the next few weeks

Harvey Carpenter: 00:04:23

or in a month or so tell her that I'm doing well, and that she'd be proud of me.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:04:29

So then my aunt did pass and I expected that they had a conversation and that

Harvey Carpenter: 00:04:35

bring me, that brought me some joy, gave me some hope, knowing that, that

Harvey Carpenter: 00:04:39

I had a way of being able to share that moment, that message my love

Harvey Carpenter: 00:04:44

with my mother all those years later.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:04:45

So yeah.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:04:48

So that's kind of my journey of grief.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:04:52

Yeah, it was, uh, yeah, it was a very strange feeling, but

Harvey Carpenter: 00:04:55

yeah, it was kinda like that.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:04:56

Absolutely.

Steve Smelski: 00:04:58

Um, did you struggle with your grief after her passing

Steve Smelski: 00:05:02

or did you begin to grieve before?

Harvey Carpenter: 00:05:06

Well, Immediately when she passed, uh, certainly

Harvey Carpenter: 00:05:09

felt the loss and the grief and the sadness that goes along with that.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:05:13

I mean, I think everyone experiences, something like that unless they go into

Harvey Carpenter: 00:05:16

denial, which some people certainly do.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:05:18

Uh, you know, we live in a culture that wants to ignore death.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:05:21

They want to deny death.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:05:22

And so for some people that means, let me put my grief in my back

Harvey Carpenter: 00:05:26

pocket, let me do whatever I can to pretend like things are normal.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:05:30

I wouldn't say that I did that, but at the same time, I wouldn't

Harvey Carpenter: 00:05:32

say that I grieved, well.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:05:35

My mother was the first person close to me to pass away.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:05:38

So, I didn't understand grief then, I didn't, I didn't know how to grieve and I

Harvey Carpenter: 00:05:43

didn't realize the importance of grieving.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:05:45

And now I do.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:05:46

Grieving is an important part of our emotional health.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:05:51

And until we learn to grieve well, until we give ourselves to the

Harvey Carpenter: 00:05:54

process, uh, I think it can be very challenging and difficult

Harvey Carpenter: 00:05:59

following them death of a loved one.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:06:01

And so it was a number of years later after I began to understand and interact

Harvey Carpenter: 00:06:06

with a lot of people who are going through loss and experiencing sorrow

Harvey Carpenter: 00:06:10

and mourning and increase to a deep degree that I reconnected with the grief

Harvey Carpenter: 00:06:16

that I, um, that I should have pursued a little bit more with my mother and

Harvey Carpenter: 00:06:19

it gave me a new insight and helped me to understand the value of grief.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:06:24

And so I think it's, it's a privilege for me then to be able to, to pour

Harvey Carpenter: 00:06:30

into the lives of people and who are hurting and help them grieve

Harvey Carpenter: 00:06:34

in ways that are productive and useful and ultimately healing.

Steve Smelski: 00:06:40

Grief is a long journey.

Steve Smelski: 00:06:43

You told us something unique.

Steve Smelski: 00:06:44

Did you actually do your mom service?

Harvey Carpenter: 00:06:47

I did not do her service.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:06:49

One of my best friends actually.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:06:51

I asked him to do the service, even though I'm a pastor and I often

Harvey Carpenter: 00:06:54

speak in front of folks um, it's challenging to do a service like that

Harvey Carpenter: 00:06:59

for someone you, you, you love dearly.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:07:02

And I was afraid that the emotion of it would be too much for me.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:07:06

Certainly I had plenty to say, but I didn't think I'd be able to, to

Harvey Carpenter: 00:07:10

emotionally handle that weight.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:07:12

And so I did it obviously attend her funeral with my family and it was at the

Harvey Carpenter: 00:07:17

church where I was serving at the time.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:07:20

And, um, it was, uh, it was well attended of course, she was well

Harvey Carpenter: 00:07:24

loved and I don't ever regret that I didn't speak at her funeral.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:07:28

Some people have asked me that in the past, you know, do you wish

Harvey Carpenter: 00:07:30

you had, had, had spoken and.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:07:33

I don't, uh, I really, uh, was able to grieve rather than think about what I was

Harvey Carpenter: 00:07:41

going to say or be at work, so to speak.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:07:44

I was able to just grieve and that was important for me

Harvey Carpenter: 00:07:47

and my family at that time.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:07:48

So, yeah, yeah.

Steve Smelski: 00:07:50

So it was actually at the church that you were a pastor at.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:07:54

It was at the church that I pastored at the

Harvey Carpenter: 00:07:56

time I was associate pastor and interestingly enough, we had just

Harvey Carpenter: 00:08:00

built a brand new large facility.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:08:03

And, um, we had just announced the grand opening in fact.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:08:07

And, she passed a week before the grand opening.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:08:11

And so as it turns out, her service was on the Friday, prior to the Sunday

Harvey Carpenter: 00:08:17

that the church was actually going to open for the first time to the

Harvey Carpenter: 00:08:20

community, that the new facility anyway.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:08:23

And I always remember that as a, as her service being the first gathering of

Harvey Carpenter: 00:08:28

people in the church building here and that, uh, it brings me joy to know that

Harvey Carpenter: 00:08:33

they came to honor her life as well.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:08:35

Yeah.

Steve Smelski: 00:08:36

That's a great story.

Steve Smelski: 00:08:37

Is that hard for you now, knowing that you had the service there and

Steve Smelski: 00:08:41

you're actually a pastor there.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:08:44

No, it's not that difficult for me now.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:08:46

I take a, I take joy in knowing that her service was there.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:08:50

And even in my mind, I can occasionally I'll reflect or picture the service

Harvey Carpenter: 00:08:58

and how it unfolded and where people were and just have those memories.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:09:02

And so the memories actually are precious to me.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:09:04

It's not a, it's not a memory of a, that saddens me at all, but the memory

Harvey Carpenter: 00:09:09

of just having her service there brings joy to me and, um, yeah, yeah.

Steve Smelski: 00:09:15

Well, that's awesome.

Steve Smelski: 00:09:16

Thank you for sharing that.

Steve Smelski: 00:09:19

So you've been talking with us a little bit before we got on the

Steve Smelski: 00:09:25

episode today and you actually have a rather unique tie to grief.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:09:32

Well, I do, if, if you're referring to

Harvey Carpenter: 00:09:34

the, my role as a pastor in the funerals that I do, yes, yes.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:09:39

God has led me into a unique role and I'm one of the few pastors that

Harvey Carpenter: 00:09:45

I know, or that are called to do as many funerals as, as I'm called to do.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:09:53

Over the last 12 years I've done more than 1500 funerals.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:09:57

And that's not something I ever set out to do.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:09:59

It's not like you, you know, growing up, you say, I want to be a guy who does

Harvey Carpenter: 00:10:02

funerals for everybody because it's a, it's a heavy role and it's dealing with a

Harvey Carpenter: 00:10:07

lot of grief, but some doors have opened up and opportunities presented themselves

Harvey Carpenter: 00:10:11

and, um, Funeral directors kept calling.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:10:14

And I kept saying yes.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:10:15

And so after 12 years, the number of funerals is, has increased

Harvey Carpenter: 00:10:21

over 1500 and it gives me a unique perspective on grief doesn't it?

Harvey Carpenter: 00:10:25

And it certainly has put me in a, in a role to, to be able to help

Harvey Carpenter: 00:10:29

a lot of families along the way.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:10:31

And it's a role that I, uh, I've cherished and in many ways reminds me of my mother,

Harvey Carpenter: 00:10:36

who her role was to be compassionate to people and to help people.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:10:41

And I suppose I inherited some of that from her as well.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:10:43

I find great joy and helping people through difficult times.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:10:47

And so, uh, God's honored me with that and I get to do that for a living.

Steve Smelski: 00:10:52

Very interesting.

Steve Smelski: 00:10:53

I don't think I'd ever met anybody before that had done that many, but I do want

Steve Smelski: 00:10:58

to go ahead and say, Shelly and I had actually met you in the same situation and

Steve Smelski: 00:11:03

you actually did Jordan's funeral for us.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:11:07

That's true.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:11:07

The first time we met was when we, uh, sat down to talk about, uh, Jordan and

Harvey Carpenter: 00:11:13

his life and, um, I met you and your wife and some other family members.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:11:18

And we had the chance to discuss Jordan and you told me all about who he was and

Harvey Carpenter: 00:11:25

what a great child he was and how much he was deeply loved by you and Shelly.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:11:30

And then, um, then a few days later, we did the, the service for him.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:11:34

And I'm going to tell you, I've done an as I've mentioned, a lot of

Harvey Carpenter: 00:11:37

funerals and that's one of the services that really sticks out in my mind.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:11:40

For a number of reasons, not the least of which is the, uh, the

Harvey Carpenter: 00:11:45

friendship that developed, uh, with you and Shelley following that.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:11:48

Um, that's been a great joy in my life and I thank you for that.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:11:53

I wish it had come about in a different way.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:11:56

I think we both would agree on that, but it's, it's been a joy.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:11:59

But the other thing that really causes me to remember Jordan service was the

Harvey Carpenter: 00:12:04

fact that, um, it might've been the first time I was asked to read sort

Harvey Carpenter: 00:12:10

of, uh, uh, uh, uh, eulogy, that was written by the person themselves.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:12:15

Uh, remember Jordan had an assignment in school where the teacher asked them to,

Harvey Carpenter: 00:12:20

to write about themselves and he did.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:12:22

So we read that at service and wow.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:12:24

That was impactful.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:12:25

And the thing that really stands out to me too, was this teacher

Harvey Carpenter: 00:12:28

who actually had made that assignment was there at the service.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:12:33

And, uh, nobody could have described Jordan's life better than he did himself.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:12:38

And what a, what a, what a great, uh, opportunity that was to just

Harvey Carpenter: 00:12:42

let people hear Jordan's own words.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:12:45

So that really stands out to me, but there's a lot of other

Harvey Carpenter: 00:12:47

funerals that stand out as well.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:12:49

I recall, uh, one young gal who passed on unexpectedly on Thanksgiving

Harvey Carpenter: 00:12:55

day number of years ago, and her parents did something very unique.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:13:00

Um, the funeral was here at the church.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:13:02

It was a large gathering of people.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:13:05

And people grieve in different ways.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:13:06

You know, a lot of young people were here because she was young

Harvey Carpenter: 00:13:09

and it was a tragic accident.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:13:10

And, um, her parents, uh, chose a light gray colored casket.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:13:19

And then they asked people to take permanent markers in various colors,

Harvey Carpenter: 00:13:25

bright colors, red and green and blue things that you could see, that stand

Harvey Carpenter: 00:13:29

out, and with the casket closed, uh, all of her friends and many others as well.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:13:35

Family members, friends of friends came down and they wrote messages.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:13:41

They expressed their love.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:13:42

They expreseds their grief.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:13:43

They were able to, to put into words actually on her casket,

Harvey Carpenter: 00:13:48

you know how they felt about her.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:13:49

And some of them wrote prayers.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:13:52

Um, some of them wrote scriptures, uh, various things.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:13:56

And I can just, in my mind, I can see that casket just completely covered

Harvey Carpenter: 00:14:00

with those writings of those people.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:14:03

And it was, what a unique way to let people express their grief and their

Harvey Carpenter: 00:14:09

love for someone to, to, to write a message and in permanent ink on

Harvey Carpenter: 00:14:15

the place where that person will, will, will remain for a long time.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:14:18

And I thought that was unique.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:14:20

That really stands out in my mind as a funeral I'll never forget.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:14:25

But, there are others as well.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:14:26

I remember a, a young father whose wife passed of Mersa infection and

Harvey Carpenter: 00:14:32

it was unexpected and quick and the entire service, I don't think

Harvey Carpenter: 00:14:37

anybody expected this, but he stayed at the casket hunched over weeping

Harvey Carpenter: 00:14:42

and sobbing for the entire service.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:14:46

And, um, what an impact that was for everybody who attended.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:14:50

And I remember at the end of the service, just when you thought maybe he was ready

Harvey Carpenter: 00:14:56

to get up and move on, he took out his cell phone and he played the song that

Harvey Carpenter: 00:15:01

had meant so much to the two of them.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:15:04

And he just, uh, he played the whole song and he, and everybody just sat

Harvey Carpenter: 00:15:08

there and cried and wept, and it was, it was just a very heavy moment of

Harvey Carpenter: 00:15:13

grief when you just see a man sobbing.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:15:16

And, um, you know, what do you say at a time like that?

Harvey Carpenter: 00:15:20

You don't, you don't say anything, you just grieve and sob with them.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:15:23

That's all you can do.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:15:24

So those are a couple of the services that just really stick out in my mind,

Harvey Carpenter: 00:15:28

but I'm sure there are many more as well.

Marshall Adler: 00:15:32

Let me ask you this.

Marshall Adler: 00:15:34

Um, I think you know this, I'm a lawyer and what I do is workers' compensation.

Marshall Adler: 00:15:41

So a lot of the things I do are dealing with medical doctors.

Marshall Adler: 00:15:44

And I remember talking to a friend of mine who was a brain

Marshall Adler: 00:15:48

surgeon and very nice, very nice person, but an excellent surgeon.

Marshall Adler: 00:15:54

And he told me something that might seem strange, but I ask you this question.

Marshall Adler: 00:16:01

He told me when he had too, save somebody's life by going literally

Marshall Adler: 00:16:08

into their brain and cutting out a malignant brain tumor, you almost had

Marshall Adler: 00:16:12

a, have a detached objectivity because his job was to go in and save this

Marshall Adler: 00:16:18

person's life, the best he could by doing the surgery that was needed.

Marshall Adler: 00:16:24

With you with so many funerals, you must have some way to be objective and

Marshall Adler: 00:16:32

a little bit detached, because doing as many funerals as you did, if you got

Marshall Adler: 00:16:37

personally involved in every single one, it must've been a huge burden on you.

Marshall Adler: 00:16:43

Am I correct?

Marshall Adler: 00:16:43

I mean, that must be a very tough balancing act for you to do, to be,

Marshall Adler: 00:16:49

you're obviously a kind compassionate, wonderful person and a great pastor.

Marshall Adler: 00:16:54

But also you are there to do a job.

Marshall Adler: 00:16:57

And so let me ask you, how do you do that?

Marshall Adler: 00:17:00

How do you keep the compassion and humanity that's needed when

Marshall Adler: 00:17:04

somebody is grieving to help them.

Marshall Adler: 00:17:06

But also to keep the objectivity, cause you are there to do a

Marshall Adler: 00:17:09

job that needs to be done.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:17:12

Yeah, that's a, that's a great a question

Harvey Carpenter: 00:17:14

Marshall, people ask me that a lot.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:17:16

Um, you know, how do you, how do you do that?

Harvey Carpenter: 00:17:18

And there is, there is a, a term called, uh, compassion, fatigue, right?

Harvey Carpenter: 00:17:24

Where people just get fatigued from having to express so much

Harvey Carpenter: 00:17:29

compassion and empathy for folks.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:17:32

And there's a balance, as you mentioned, that has to be struck there by me

Harvey Carpenter: 00:17:37

and walk a fine line between being detached and thinking of this is just

Harvey Carpenter: 00:17:42

a role that I, I've been called to, versus really ministering to folks.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:17:48

And so, you know, I try to really minister to folks to the extent that I can.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:17:53

Fortunately for me, uh, most of the folks that I'm called to serve, um,

Harvey Carpenter: 00:17:58

I don't, I don't know personally.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:18:00

Some I do, but the vast majority are people that I've never met.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:18:05

And it's good.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:18:06

And I relished the opportunity to serve them.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:18:08

And it's, it's good that they're reaching out, you know, to, to a

Harvey Carpenter: 00:18:12

pastor for help at a time like this.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:18:14

They certainly, uh, sense the need for, that's why they're calling

Harvey Carpenter: 00:18:18

and why they feel like, uh, you know, that want a pastor there.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:18:22

So there's a ministry to be, um, be had there and that's, that's wonderful.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:18:26

But people will ask me, is it easier for you to do a service, a officiate, a, a

Harvey Carpenter: 00:18:32

memorial or a funeral service for someone, you know, or someone you don't know?

Harvey Carpenter: 00:18:36

And the honest answer is it's easier from an emotional perspective

Harvey Carpenter: 00:18:40

for someone I don't know.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:18:41

Because there's not as much emotional attachment.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:18:45

If I know the person, somebody may be from the church where I serve or

Harvey Carpenter: 00:18:48

a family member or somebody in the community that I know a long time friend

Harvey Carpenter: 00:18:52

perhaps it's much more challenging.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:18:54

Because there's that emotional component and you want to make sure

Harvey Carpenter: 00:18:57

that you know, that, uh, that you don't get too emotionally involved while

Harvey Carpenter: 00:19:03

you're trying to conduct a service.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:19:06

And so, um, it's, it's, it's much more challenging that way, but yeah,

Harvey Carpenter: 00:19:10

there's a balance that has to be struck.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:19:12

I won't say it's easy and I have found myself, I'll be honest with you on

Harvey Carpenter: 00:19:15

a couple of occasions with people.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:19:17

I don't know, sitting in a service and the story is told and I get emotional.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:19:22

I think that's just part of the territory and it may be that comes with

Harvey Carpenter: 00:19:25

a compassionate heart to some degree.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:19:27

But I think the other part of the answer to your question, and I think

Harvey Carpenter: 00:19:30

this is the real answer is, God has given me a capacity to be able to

Harvey Carpenter: 00:19:36

do this beyond my normal talent or skill would normally, you know, be.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:19:43

I think this is really a gift that God's given me.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:19:47

And, and so perhaps I'm able to bear a little more than most people

Harvey Carpenter: 00:19:51

and it's something that, uh, you know, he's put up on my heart to do.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:19:54

And, um, and I keep getting, um, uh, people referred to me.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:19:58

And so it tells me that, you know, there there's an opportunity here to touch

Harvey Carpenter: 00:20:02

lives and that's really what I want to do.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:20:04

So if that means there's a little bit of, uh, uh, emotional, uh, baggage

Harvey Carpenter: 00:20:09

or fatigue that goes with it, so be it, that's what I'm called to do.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:20:11

So, yeah, it's not an easy thing really.

Marshall Adler: 00:20:15

That's great that you realize you have this special gift and

Marshall Adler: 00:20:18

you're willing to help others with it.

Marshall Adler: 00:20:20

That speaks volumes about your compassion.

Marshall Adler: 00:20:22

That's wonderful.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:20:23

Well, thank you very much.

Steve Smelski: 00:20:27

Harvey.

Steve Smelski: 00:20:28

One of the questions I had was when you get a call, you reach out to them.

Steve Smelski: 00:20:35

You meet with them before the service, usually.

Steve Smelski: 00:20:38

Do you say different things to different families?

Steve Smelski: 00:20:41

Is it a case by case?

Steve Smelski: 00:20:42

Because I remember when we met you, we said, hello, and we handed you a

Steve Smelski: 00:20:47

picture of Jordan and the first thing you said to me was, tell me about Jordan.

Steve Smelski: 00:20:52

You had us at that moment because that's all we wanted to do is

Steve Smelski: 00:20:56

make sure you knew who he was.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:21:00

Yeah.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:21:00

The most important thing for me is to know, uh, a little bit

Harvey Carpenter: 00:21:05

about the life of the person.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:21:06

Because that's what matters.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:21:08

I mean, the details of the service, the flow of the service, the particulars of,

Harvey Carpenter: 00:21:13

you know, what's going to happen in terms of making the service, you know, work

Harvey Carpenter: 00:21:17

it that you can, that can come later.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:21:20

But, helping people share what's really the most important thing in

Harvey Carpenter: 00:21:26

their life, and that is their loved one at that time thats passed away.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:21:29

I want to hear their emotion.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:21:31

I want to hear their words.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:21:32

I want to hear them talk about that loved one.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:21:34

It not only helps me, but I think it helps them as well as they begin to, uh, process

Harvey Carpenter: 00:21:39

the grief that, uh, is, is, is there.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:21:42

And, and ironically, people want to talk about their loved ones.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:21:45

That's that's the big misnomer that people have is I don't want to bring up

Harvey Carpenter: 00:21:49

a loved one because it's going to cause some pain in the person's life and that's

Harvey Carpenter: 00:21:53

really, that's really, it, may cause some pain, but it's pain that they want

Harvey Carpenter: 00:21:58

to feel because that's what grief is.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:22:00

It's, it's a painfulness that is, is sweet in some ways, because it's a memory of

Harvey Carpenter: 00:22:06

something that you deeply, deeply love.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:22:09

And want to keep with you forever.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:22:11

So you want to talk about that.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:22:12

They want to, they want to highlight, you know, their loved one and

Harvey Carpenter: 00:22:16

what they accomplished and what their passions were and you know,

Harvey Carpenter: 00:22:20

how they conducted their life.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:22:21

And what the legacy that has been left is all about.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:22:24

And so I typically try to get people to talk initially about their loved one.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:22:30

And then we save the details for later.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:22:33

But one of the things that I think is important for people to know is

Harvey Carpenter: 00:22:36

where I'm coming from as a pastor and what my perspective is and

Harvey Carpenter: 00:22:39

what I want to accomplish, what I think I, we all want to really

Harvey Carpenter: 00:22:43

accomplish, uh, with, with the service.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:22:46

Whether it's a funeral or memorial service, whether it's

Harvey Carpenter: 00:22:49

a chapel service or a grave site service, whatever the case may be.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:22:52

I tell folks, listen, one of the things that we I'd like for us to do

Harvey Carpenter: 00:22:57

is honor your loved one at the service.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:22:59

So, what that means is we want to take an opportunity to share

Harvey Carpenter: 00:23:02

those, those wonderful memories, those positive memories.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:23:05

We want to tell stories of love and joy.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:23:07

We want to talk about the past that they had in life.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:23:10

We want to honor your loved one.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:23:12

That's what we're here to do is to, is to honor them, to have those, those memories

Harvey Carpenter: 00:23:17

that make us, you know, just smile.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:23:19

And then I say to them, but the second thing we'd like to

Harvey Carpenter: 00:23:22

do is comfort, the loved ones.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:23:25

So people are coming and they're looking for a word of comfort.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:23:28

People need to know that there's comfort, that exists, that can, that

Harvey Carpenter: 00:23:32

can help them, and that can sooth them and that can, you know, bring

Harvey Carpenter: 00:23:36

healing and hope to a broken heart.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:23:38

And so I tell them that we want to, uh, we wanna, we want to provide some comfort.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:23:43

For me, that comfort usually comes through the sharing of scripture

Harvey Carpenter: 00:23:49

because I believe one of the things that God does best as he comforts us.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:23:55

And so, you know, I'll share or passage that, that just talks about the comfort

Harvey Carpenter: 00:24:00

of God and the presence of God and the goodness of God, like Psalm 46 says

Harvey Carpenter: 00:24:04

God is our refuge and our strength, a very present help in times of trouble.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:24:10

That's a powerful reminder that in the midst of your sorrow and

Harvey Carpenter: 00:24:13

grief and your pain and your mourning that God is present.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:24:17

And not only is he present, but he cares.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:24:19

And so that's a comforting thing for people to be reminded of.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:24:23

I suppose, the most comforting of passage of all is Psalm 23.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:24:28

You know, the Lord is my shepherd and he talks about how he walks with us

Harvey Carpenter: 00:24:32

through the valleys of grief and pain.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:24:37

And he's there in the midst of us.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:24:39

When it says there, I walk through the Valley, I'm always reminded it

Harvey Carpenter: 00:24:42

doesn't say I run through the Valley.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:24:44

We walk because we know God is with us and he's walking

Harvey Carpenter: 00:24:47

beside us every step of the way.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:24:49

And it's always good to know that he's there.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:24:51

So the goal is to bring comfort.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:24:54

And then finally, I want to point people in right direction.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:24:57

People are looking for hope.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:24:59

People are realized life is fragile.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:25:03

And it can be short and, um, they're looking for hope.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:25:07

And so we want to point people in the right direction.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:25:09

We want to talk about what's important in life.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:25:11

Family is important, of course, friends are important and faith is important.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:25:16

In the end that's really all that matters.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:25:18

Family, friends, and faith.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:25:19

That's all you have.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:25:21

And so I talk about the importance of, uh, giving people, uh, you know,

Harvey Carpenter: 00:25:26

hope and pointing them in the right direction and making that, which is a

Harvey Carpenter: 00:25:29

priority in your life, your priority, living in such a way that you bring

Harvey Carpenter: 00:25:33

honor and glory to your loved one.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:25:36

That's the best legacy you can live.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:25:37

Live your life in a way that they would be appreciative of it.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:25:40

So, those are the three things I really try to tell families when I talk to them

Harvey Carpenter: 00:25:45

initially, you know, talk about their loved one, get them to share that story

Harvey Carpenter: 00:25:50

with me, and then we talk a little bit about the service and how that's going

Harvey Carpenter: 00:25:54

to flow and what's important to them.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:25:55

And do they want to include music?

Harvey Carpenter: 00:25:57

Do they want to have scripture?

Harvey Carpenter: 00:25:58

Do they want prayers?

Harvey Carpenter: 00:25:59

Do they, who do they want to give the eulogy?

Harvey Carpenter: 00:26:02

Um, do they have other family members who want to say some things?

Harvey Carpenter: 00:26:05

So, all of that has to be set up and then, um, then we do the service.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:26:10

So that's how it usually happens.

Steve Smelski: 00:26:13

Marshall, did you have a, a question?

Steve Smelski: 00:26:17

On, I think we were talking earlier between the different religions and

Steve Smelski: 00:26:22

different things for comparison,

Marshall Adler: 00:26:24

Right?

Marshall Adler: 00:26:25

Uh, Harvey, you know, I met you through Grief Share and you know that, uh,

Marshall Adler: 00:26:30

I'm Jewish and, um, growing up Jewish, I've learned that Jewish religion has

Marshall Adler: 00:26:40

certain procedures dealing with grief and one of the tenants is to help have

Marshall Adler: 00:26:48

the community help somebody who lost a loved one is called sitting shivah.

Marshall Adler: 00:26:53

When somebody loses a loved one, the community rallies around the

Marshall Adler: 00:26:58

family, taking over the house, taking, bringing food in, taking

Marshall Adler: 00:27:03

care of all the family members.

Marshall Adler: 00:27:06

And it's really a wonderful thing to see people rallying around

Marshall Adler: 00:27:10

you when you most need people.

Marshall Adler: 00:27:14

My question to you is sort of twofold.

Marshall Adler: 00:27:17

Um, again, I'd been to many funerals of Jewish friends.

Marshall Adler: 00:27:21

I've been to many funerals of Christian friends.

Marshall Adler: 00:27:23

And I've noticed a lot of similarities between a Jewish

Marshall Adler: 00:27:27

and a Christian funeral service.

Marshall Adler: 00:27:29

I see the same thing with family and friends railing around, which is great.

Marshall Adler: 00:27:33

So my question is twofold is do you see any distinction between Judaism and

Marshall Adler: 00:27:38

Christianity with that, but also, as we're taping this, I guess that's all as we're

Marshall Adler: 00:27:46

doing this on the computer digitally, somebody might be listening to this

Marshall Adler: 00:27:50

50 years from now we're doing this in 2020, during the middle of a worldwide

Marshall Adler: 00:27:55

COVID-19 coronavirus pandemic, where for centuries, the way that the Jewish and

Marshall Adler: 00:28:02

Christian religions have been dealing with grief is to get people together.

Marshall Adler: 00:28:06

Get people, hogging, get people.

Marshall Adler: 00:28:09

As far, the antithesis of social distancing is a sitting shivah

Marshall Adler: 00:28:16

situation or a funeral situation.

Marshall Adler: 00:28:19

So my question is now again, how does the Christian religion, if similar

Marshall Adler: 00:28:24

similarities or differences with the Jewish religion, but also how

Marshall Adler: 00:28:28

are you dealing with the fact that everything we're being told to keep

Marshall Adler: 00:28:33

us safe now with the COVID-19 Corona virus is at odds with what people

Marshall Adler: 00:28:39

have done for thousands of years, helping loved ones go through grief.

Marshall Adler: 00:28:43

So it's a twofold question.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:28:45

Yeah, that, that, uh, that's, we're in a unique time for sure.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:28:50

That's that's true.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:28:51

Well, the reality is, um, I often get asked to speak at,

Harvey Carpenter: 00:28:57

uh, funerals for Jewish folks.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:28:59

I mean, that's not an uncommon thing.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:29:02

And the reality is that Christianity and Judaism, um, both share common

Harvey Carpenter: 00:29:08

scriptures, you know, so you've got the, the Hebrew scriptures and you've

Harvey Carpenter: 00:29:12

got the new covenant as it were.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:29:15

And I often use even for a Christian family the old covenant, the Hebrew

Harvey Carpenter: 00:29:21

scriptures, and there's so many good texts there that remind us of God's presence

Harvey Carpenter: 00:29:27

and God's comfort in God's goodness.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:29:29

And I mean, I'm just reminded of Psalm 34, you know, the Lord

Harvey Carpenter: 00:29:33

is near to the broken hearted.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:29:35

He saves those who are crushed in spirit.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:29:37

And I tell folks, yeah, may feel overwhelmed today.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:29:40

You may feel as though you're crushed by your emotions, but the promises

Harvey Carpenter: 00:29:44

that God is with you and that he saves.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:29:48

And of course, if it's a family that puts their hope in Christ as a Christian

Harvey Carpenter: 00:29:53

family, I would say that the resurrection of Jesus is what gives us hope today.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:29:58

And, and so, uh, but there are so many common teachings and common language

Harvey Carpenter: 00:30:04

that can be used between a Jewish or Christian, uh, service that you know,

Harvey Carpenter: 00:30:11

that they're in many ways, very similar.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:30:14

Very similar.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:30:16

And in terms of practice, uh, again, I mean, you can go all

Harvey Carpenter: 00:30:19

the way back to the scriptures.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:30:21

Jesus was a Jew.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:30:23

I mean, you see him attending funerals and, you know, at the

Harvey Carpenter: 00:30:27

funeral of Lazarus, you know, he was mourning with the mourners there.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:30:31

He, he went to express his love and concern and be with Mary

Harvey Carpenter: 00:30:37

and Martha Lazarus's funeral.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:30:38

And those were Lazarus's sisters.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:30:41

And it says there, the shortest verse in the scriptures is that Jesus

Harvey Carpenter: 00:30:44

wept, his compassion was overflowing.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:30:47

And so, you know, when we think about, uh, uh, grieving, we think about, I

Harvey Carpenter: 00:30:52

mean, there's a common denominator in grief, no matter what your religion.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:30:57

Whether you're Jewish or Christian or Buddhist or whatever it might be.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:31:00

I mean, weeping and gnashing of teeth and doing the kinds of things

Harvey Carpenter: 00:31:05

that express grief physically.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:31:09

It's a commonality between them all.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:31:11

If you go back a little further into ancient times, and I'm not sure whether

Harvey Carpenter: 00:31:15

or not this is still a practice in Judaism, but I mean, people used

Harvey Carpenter: 00:31:19

to grieve outwardly and physically.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:31:23

I mean, they would, they would rip their clothes.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:31:25

They would put ashes on their head.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:31:27

They would, they would isolate them themselves for a certain amount of time.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:31:31

There would be a period of mourning.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:31:33

You don't see that as much today.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:31:36

And in our Western culture at least.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:31:38

Mourning doesn't unfold in that way.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:31:41

Grief doesn't seem to take that path.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:31:43

It's, it's almost, almost always seems like it's back to business as usual, you

Harvey Carpenter: 00:31:49

know, after a service and people don't take time to grieve, like they used to.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:31:54

So I think that's one of the, one of the beauties of the

Harvey Carpenter: 00:31:57

Jewish religion as I see it.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:31:59

If you look back into the old Testament, there were some practices

Harvey Carpenter: 00:32:02

there that I think we would all be better served by if we were to

Harvey Carpenter: 00:32:07

adopt them and grieve in those ways.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:32:12

I really do, but I, cause I think there's a lot of wisdom and value in that.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:32:16

And that's why you can read the Psalms and it's just full of passages

Harvey Carpenter: 00:32:20

about God's presence and overcoming difficult times, whatever they may be.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:32:25

As far as today's uh situation with COVID, I've done a number of services where

Harvey Carpenter: 00:32:31

we've had to have social distancing, and I'm gonna tell you it's an odd thing.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:32:36

Where people can't get together and naturally they want to be

Harvey Carpenter: 00:32:39

close to one another and they want to be a, you know, hugging and

Harvey Carpenter: 00:32:43

weeping and wiping away the tears.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:32:46

And when that's not, uh, you know, almost comes second nature to folks, uh,

Harvey Carpenter: 00:32:50

but when that's, when you're prevented from doing that, it, it seems strange.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:32:55

It seems, uh, out of the normal, uh, flow of how you would normally grieve.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:33:00

And so I think though, there will come a time where we get through that,

Harvey Carpenter: 00:33:04

people go right back to, to grieving and, and, and, and being close.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:33:09

I think families may, uh, may ignore some of the social distancing

Harvey Carpenter: 00:33:13

simply because their family.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:33:15

You know, they feel much more comfortable around one another, but

Harvey Carpenter: 00:33:18

when you start bringing strangers or extended family or guests into the mix.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:33:25

Yeah, it does make for a unique environment, especially now that we're

Harvey Carpenter: 00:33:28

all practicing social distancing and wearing masks and things like that.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:33:33

It's very different.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:33:35

So how it has an effect on grief?

Harvey Carpenter: 00:33:38

I don't know.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:33:38

Probably doesn't have a very good effect on grief, because I think one of the

Harvey Carpenter: 00:33:42

things that helps people have hope for the future is knowing that they're

Harvey Carpenter: 00:33:47

loved and cared for and that almost always takes personal human touch.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:33:53

And so we're lacking some of that right now.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:33:55

The social distancing that's happening and the isolation that's

Harvey Carpenter: 00:33:58

happening is contributing to, I think, more emotional and relational

Harvey Carpenter: 00:34:03

dysfunction right now through COVID.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:34:05

So, hopefully we'll come to a time when this whole period is over soon.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:34:13

Thats, that's our prayer, at least for sure.

Steve Smelski: 00:34:16

Do you have any of the families reach out after the

Steve Smelski: 00:34:19

service recently in the last few months where they're struggling

Steve Smelski: 00:34:23

because of the situation.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:34:26

No, I haven't had any families reach out and mention

Harvey Carpenter: 00:34:30

anything about struggling because of covert or anything like that.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:34:32

It's not uncommon though, for families to reach out afterwards, um, to inquire

Harvey Carpenter: 00:34:37

about maybe a next step for their family or for them personally, with their grief.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:34:42

And oftentimes that next step, um, at least for me, would be to

Harvey Carpenter: 00:34:47

suggest to them a support group.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:34:51

And the support groups, uh, that I'm familiar with, there's one called Grief

Harvey Carpenter: 00:34:54

Share that we have at our church, and we recommend people, uh, who looking for

Harvey Carpenter: 00:34:59

help through their grief, join that group.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:35:02

And, um, we've been doing it for a number of years, have a great leaders

Harvey Carpenter: 00:35:06

and many people have gone through it.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:35:08

And most expressed to me and to others that is very helpful.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:35:14

And it's, it's a it's, uh, it's designed to be discussion oriented.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:35:19

Uh, people come together, they share their stories, they share their grief.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:35:23

They remind one another that they can get through this and they can

Harvey Carpenter: 00:35:27

cope even in the midst of the pain.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:35:28

And so, uh, I'll often recommend that when people follow up with me.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:35:32

Sometimes if they're asking specifically for a therapist or a counselor,

Harvey Carpenter: 00:35:37

we have partners that we work with at church that we can recommend

Harvey Carpenter: 00:35:40

and sometimes we do that as well.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:35:42

Yeah.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:35:43

Yep.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:35:43

And that sometimes people will just ask, you know, about the church and

Harvey Carpenter: 00:35:46

how to get more involved, and there's an enlightening that happens to them

Harvey Carpenter: 00:35:50

at the death of a loved one, where they start thinking about eternity.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:35:54

They start thinking about their own passing and the importance so of life,

Harvey Carpenter: 00:35:57

and they want to make some changes.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:35:59

And so that sometimes that's a discussion that takes place and, um, you know, that's

Harvey Carpenter: 00:36:04

uh, and I think that's a good thing.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:36:05

That's, again, goes back to what I said before about pointing

Harvey Carpenter: 00:36:08

people in the right direction.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:36:10

Um, just helping remind, just helping remind people that

Harvey Carpenter: 00:36:12

there's more beyond this life.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:36:14

And when you begin to grasp that there's more than what we just see day to day.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:36:19

Um, it, it starts to open up some things in some people's minds.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:36:22

I'll give you an illustration.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:36:23

There's a, a monument in Spain.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:36:29

That's a monument to Christopher Columbus.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:36:32

And it's well known.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:36:33

You can, you can look it up it, uh, and at the bottom of the monument, it says no

Harvey Carpenter: 00:36:38

plus ultra, which means no more beyond.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:36:42

Meaning that this is all there is, there's no more beyond this is it.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:36:45

But what Columbus discovered was that in fact there is more beyond,

Harvey Carpenter: 00:36:50

he was an Explorer, as you know.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:36:53

And so at the base of this monument is, um, is a lion.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:36:58

And the lion is reaching out with its paw and it's striking away the word no.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:37:06

So now the monument reads more beyond.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:37:10

And what a great reminder that sometimes we have blinders on that this is all

Harvey Carpenter: 00:37:15

there is this world that we live in.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:37:18

Cause it's all we see.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:37:20

But as great explorers have revealed, there's, there's much more out of

Harvey Carpenter: 00:37:25

sight than there is just around us.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:37:29

And there's more beyond this life.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:37:30

And I try to give people hope that what you see and experience every day.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:37:35

That's just a small, tiny part of the reality that actually exists.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:37:40

And I think it gives them hope, not only for themselves, but even for

Harvey Carpenter: 00:37:45

their loved one that's passed on.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:37:46

And, um, so yeah.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:37:49

Yeah,

Marshall Adler: 00:37:50

That's so important because Steve and I have talked so many

Marshall Adler: 00:37:53

times that obviously the name of this show is Hope Thru Grief and we all know that

Marshall Adler: 00:38:01

grief is directly related to the amount of love you have for your lost loved one.

Marshall Adler: 00:38:06

So the more you love, the more you're going to grieve.

Marshall Adler: 00:38:08

And Steve and I, you know, we both lost sons and it's something that

Marshall Adler: 00:38:14

we know we will be on, this grief journey for the rest of our lives.

Marshall Adler: 00:38:19

But we also know the lifes for the living and we have to do everything

Marshall Adler: 00:38:25

we can to live our lives as a tribute, to our lossed loved ones.

Marshall Adler: 00:38:29

And part of that is to have hope for the future.

Marshall Adler: 00:38:32

To have hope, to try to help people.

Marshall Adler: 00:38:34

So obviously what you're doing is incredibly important because you

Marshall Adler: 00:38:38

are giving people hope literally through grief at their time of need.

Marshall Adler: 00:38:44

So, you know, I've known you personally as a very wonderful, caring person, but

Marshall Adler: 00:38:52

hearing you talk professionally as a pastor, it's obviously you're very good

Marshall Adler: 00:38:57

at what you do and you're helping a lot of people that are going through grief.

Marshall Adler: 00:39:02

And Lord knows we are in a time in history where there be

Marshall Adler: 00:39:07

an enormous amount of grief.

Marshall Adler: 00:39:08

Why?

Marshall Adler: 00:39:09

Because we're in the middle of a worldwide pandemic.

Marshall Adler: 00:39:12

So I think doing what you're doing is literally something that

Marshall Adler: 00:39:17

could be saving so many people.

Marshall Adler: 00:39:19

It's a wonderful thing to hear.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:39:22

Well, thank you, Marshall.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:39:23

I, I certainly consider it a privilege to do that and also to be able to share

Harvey Carpenter: 00:39:28

what God's doing through me and through Journey with you all, and hopefully with

Harvey Carpenter: 00:39:33

many of other people through this podcast.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:39:34

And so I just consider it a privilege.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:39:37

And you're right.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:39:38

I'm hope in the midst of grief is really what it's all about.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:39:42

Hope what keeps us going day to day.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:39:45

Uh, just realizing that, um, you know, life can get better, even

Harvey Carpenter: 00:39:51

though there's going to continue to be pain and we'll have to cope

Harvey Carpenter: 00:39:54

with, uh, sadness and heartbreak.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:39:57

Uh, but we can still be productive.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:39:59

We can still move forward.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:40:01

We can still impact those around us.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:40:03

We can still make a difference.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:40:05

And I think, I think what gives people hope in the midst of all the sorrow and

Harvey Carpenter: 00:40:11

sadness is knowing that they're loved.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:40:13

I think that's important.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:40:15

People need to realize that they're loved.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:40:18

And, um, loved by their family, loved by their friends, you know, loved by God.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:40:23

Uh, love is so important.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:40:25

People need to remember that even when you feel that you're not loved, actually

Harvey Carpenter: 00:40:31

you are, and people need to accept that.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:40:33

And I think that gives people hope.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:40:35

The other thing is.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:40:36

As we mentioned before, hope comes from realizing that there's

Harvey Carpenter: 00:40:40

more beyond just this life.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:40:42

I mean, and, and when we begin to let that sink in, um, it opens up

Harvey Carpenter: 00:40:49

windows of opportunity for, for not only this life, but we've start

Harvey Carpenter: 00:40:54

thinking about the life to come.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:40:56

And so that I think gives people a lot of hope.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:40:59

And then I think another thing that gives people hope is understanding

Harvey Carpenter: 00:41:03

that God is ultimately in control.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:41:05

There's so little in this life that we can actually control, that,

Harvey Carpenter: 00:41:09

that God is ultimately in control.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:41:11

And when we're willing to give up, you know, control to him and trust

Harvey Carpenter: 00:41:17

in him and realize, uh, he's good that, that brings us some hope.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:41:23

You know, I think that brings hope.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:41:25

And I'm just reminded, you know, there's a scripture in the new Testament

Harvey Carpenter: 00:41:28

that says in God's presence, this is Revelation chapter 21, that in God's

Harvey Carpenter: 00:41:33

presence, there's no more pain or sorrow or heartbreak or sin that says

Harvey Carpenter: 00:41:38

all things have been made brand new.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:41:41

And isn't that the hope that we really ultimately look for is that God's

Harvey Carpenter: 00:41:44

going to kind of remake this world and that there's something better coming?

Harvey Carpenter: 00:41:48

You know, Jesus says I've gone and prepared a place for you so that,

Harvey Carpenter: 00:41:52

you know, I can I'll come and get you and take you to be with me.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:41:55

We look forward to God making things right in our deep, in our souls.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:42:01

That's what we want to happen.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:42:02

And that gives us hope, believing that it will.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:42:05

It doesn't make grief any easier, but it does give us hope to keep going on.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:42:10

So yeah, those are some, some of my thoughts about hope right there.

Steve Smelski: 00:42:14

Thank you for sharing that with us today.

Steve Smelski: 00:42:18

I think a lot of us struggle with the death of a loved one to

Steve Smelski: 00:42:23

the point where you wonder why that happened to my loved one.

Steve Smelski: 00:42:28

Why did it happen to us?

Steve Smelski: 00:42:31

What would you encourage them, how would you look at that?

Steve Smelski: 00:42:35

And how would you encourage them to look at it a little bit differently?

Harvey Carpenter: 00:42:41

Yeah, I hear that a lot.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:42:45

People like to ask that question.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:42:47

Why?

Harvey Carpenter: 00:42:49

I mean, that is the question, isn't it?

Harvey Carpenter: 00:42:51

That we want to know when a loved one passes on whether it's from a you

Harvey Carpenter: 00:42:56

know, tragic, unexpected accident or whether they suffered for a long time.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:42:59

We want to know why, because it seems so unfair.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:43:03

You know, if God's loving and God is good, why did he let this happen?

Harvey Carpenter: 00:43:06

So we want to know why, because we want to believe in our hearts that

Harvey Carpenter: 00:43:08

there's, there must be a good reason that God allowed this to happen.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:43:12

So we want to know why?

Harvey Carpenter: 00:43:14

But the reality is, and we find this from the book of job out

Harvey Carpenter: 00:43:18

of the old Testament, is that.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:43:21

That question is an unanswerable question for us.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:43:24

We're never going to understand or know the question, the

Harvey Carpenter: 00:43:28

answer to the question why.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:43:30

God doesn't reveal that to us.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:43:33

I mean, we wish that he would, of course I would love to know, you

Harvey Carpenter: 00:43:37

know, why certain people have passed on, you know, before their time, but

Harvey Carpenter: 00:43:42

that's the kind of information it seems that's only reserved for God.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:43:45

And maybe there are good reasons that we don't understand as to why.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:43:49

But the fact of the matter is we just don't have the answers and to

Harvey Carpenter: 00:43:52

speculate is maybe not a good thing.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:43:57

Speculation tends to go the wrong way.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:44:01

And so, uh, people often ask that question, Steven, and, uh, of course I

Harvey Carpenter: 00:44:05

refuse to answer the question because I don't know the answer and I encourage

Harvey Carpenter: 00:44:09

them not to, I encourage them not to seek the answer to that question because that

Harvey Carpenter: 00:44:13

that'll that'll drive you mad over time.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:44:17

As, as the answer continues to change, as you, uh, as you grow in your grief

Harvey Carpenter: 00:44:23

and as you learn to cope with the new reality, that answer will tend to change.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:44:27

And so now you're questioning yourself and you're questioning the answer or

Harvey Carpenter: 00:44:31

you're ultimately questioning God.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:44:33

I mean, it, it doesn't lead to a good place.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:44:36

I think the best thing to do instead of ask why is just trust and hope that.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:44:44

Put hope in that God is good and that ultimately he will work

Harvey Carpenter: 00:44:49

everything out and that's really, all you can do is just trust in him.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:44:54

That's, that's, that's my answer to, you know, people who ask the question why,

Steve Smelski: 00:45:01

And it's not to say that he can't make something good come

Steve Smelski: 00:45:05

out of it, which I've seen myself.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:45:09

Oh, of course.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:45:10

Oh, of course.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:45:11

Oftentimes he does.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:45:12

God takes our mess and makes a masterpiece on many occasions.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:45:16

He takes the, the, the worst, uh, situations, the most tragic circumstances

Harvey Carpenter: 00:45:22

that the deal pain in our life.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:45:24

And he'll often take that hurt or that weakness or, and he'll, he'll turn

Harvey Carpenter: 00:45:30

it into something that's a strength.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:45:32

He'll turn it into something that's a, that's a, that's a powerful

Harvey Carpenter: 00:45:36

tool to be used in various ways to help so many other people.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:45:40

And that's, that is, that's kind of the ironic thing about pain, is that pain

Harvey Carpenter: 00:45:45

as much as we dislike is very useful.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:45:49

I mean, without pain, there would be all kinds of problems in life.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:45:53

Pain is a, is a marker that teaches us things.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:45:57

And let's, let's not kid ourselves, grief is painful.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:46:01

Mourning is painful.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:46:04

Deep sorrow hurts like nobody's business, but, that doesn't mean that God can't

Harvey Carpenter: 00:46:10

take our pain and transform it into a powerful force in not only our lives,

Harvey Carpenter: 00:46:17

but in the lives of other people.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:46:19

He's, he's good at transforming things.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:46:22

And, um, when we cooperate with that transformation, good things can

Harvey Carpenter: 00:46:28

come of it, just like this podcast and then many other endeavors that

Harvey Carpenter: 00:46:33

we could probably mention as well.

Steve Smelski: 00:46:35

Thank you for your insight and your thoughts and your stories.

Steve Smelski: 00:46:39

I've enjoyed them over the six years that I've gotten to know you.

Steve Smelski: 00:46:44

Marshall, did you have any last questions?

Marshall Adler: 00:46:47

Just again, thank you so much.

Marshall Adler: 00:46:49

Again, I'm glad we had this opportunity because I met you through Grief Share and

Marshall Adler: 00:46:57

that was sort of a slice, and today I saw the bigger pie of your personality, which

Marshall Adler: 00:47:03

is great to see because you're obviously caring, loving, compassionate, human

Marshall Adler: 00:47:09

being and doing what you do is wonderful.

Marshall Adler: 00:47:14

And obviously you have the skillset and the personality and the intellectual,

Marshall Adler: 00:47:20

I'm not, I'm not just talking about IQ wise, but EQ, emotional quotient.

Marshall Adler: 00:47:26

You can be a very intelligent person, but not be empathetic,

Marshall Adler: 00:47:30

caring, emotionally open.

Marshall Adler: 00:47:32

And obviously you are, so this was a pleasure and a privilege

Marshall Adler: 00:47:36

to talk to you today, seeing the whole pie instead of just a piece.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:47:41

Well, likewise, um, you guys are doing a wonderful

Harvey Carpenter: 00:47:45

service to so many people around the world who are hurting and just

Harvey Carpenter: 00:47:49

need that loving guidance and care.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:47:51

And so I thank you for the opportunity to, to share with you today and

Harvey Carpenter: 00:47:55

pray for great success for both of you who may you be blessed and, and

Harvey Carpenter: 00:47:59

may God continue to walk with you.

Steve Smelski: 00:48:02

Thank you very much.

Steve Smelski: 00:48:04

You said you got a Grief Share coming up.

Steve Smelski: 00:48:06

What is the start date for that?

Steve Smelski: 00:48:09

So, Grief share starts on August the third, which is a Monday.

Steve Smelski: 00:48:13

It will be presented online this time due to the circumstances with COVID.

Steve Smelski: 00:48:17

So, uh, yeah.

Steve Smelski: 00:48:19

So in fact, no matter where you are in the world, if you wanted to join in on

Steve Smelski: 00:48:24

Monday nights, um, you could certainly do that and you just go to the journey,

Steve Smelski: 00:48:28

Christian Church website, and, um, can you register there and we'd love to have

Steve Smelski: 00:48:33

you as a part of our Grief Share group.

Steve Smelski: 00:48:36

Well, thank you for sharing that with us.

Steve Smelski: 00:48:39

And that's all I have for today on the questions.

Steve Smelski: 00:48:42

I think you more than covered what I had, Marshall?

Marshall Adler: 00:48:45

Absolutely.

Marshall Adler: 00:48:46

Again, thank you so much for being a wonderful guest and we

Marshall Adler: 00:48:49

can't thank you enough for the wonderful work you're doing.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:48:52

Well, thank you so much.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:48:53

It's been a, it's been a pleasure.

Harvey Carpenter: 00:48:55

And I look forward to, uh, maybe sometime in the future coming back

Harvey Carpenter: 00:48:59

and sharing with you some more.

Steve Smelski: 00:49:02

Thank you, pastor Harvey.

Steve Smelski: 00:49:04

And that'll wrap up for a show today with pastor Harvey Carpenter,

Steve Smelski: 00:49:08

associate pastor at Journey Christian Church in Apopka, Florida.

Steve Smelski: 00:49:11

Thank you for joining us today on this episode of Hope Thru Grief.

Steve Smelski: 00:49:18

Thank you for joining us on Hope Thru Grief with your cohost

Steve Smelski: 00:49:22

Marshall Adler and Steve Smelski.

Steve Smelski: 00:49:25

We hope

Marshall Adler: 00:49:25

our episode today was helpful and informative.

Marshall Adler: 00:49:30

Since we are not medical or mental health professionals, we cannot

Marshall Adler: 00:49:35

and will not, provide any medical, psychological, or mental health advice.

Marshall Adler: 00:49:41

Therefore, if you or anyone, you know, requires medical or mental health

Marshall Adler: 00:49:46

treatment, please contact a medical or mental health professional immediately.