The #COVID Conundrum

Marshall Adler: 00:00:03

Hello.

Marshall Adler: 00:00:04

I'd like to thank you so much for listening to our new episode today.

Marshall Adler: 00:00:09

I'd like to invite you all to a very unusual episode, but before I

Marshall Adler: 00:00:12

do so I'd like to introduce my good friend and cohost, Steve Smelski.

Steve Smelski: 00:00:19

Thank you, Marshall.

Steve Smelski: 00:00:21

Hello, everyone.

Steve Smelski: 00:00:22

Welcome to today's episode of Hope Thru Grief.

Steve Smelski: 00:00:25

Today we've got an interesting show.

Steve Smelski: 00:00:28

We're going to get in a little bit to a topic that we're all

Steve Smelski: 00:00:31

too familiar with right now.

Steve Smelski: 00:00:33

Marshall.

Marshall Adler: 00:00:34

Thank you, Steve.

Marshall Adler: 00:00:36

Steve today's, as you know, today's society is absolutely been changed

Marshall Adler: 00:00:42

and turned upside down due to the COVID-19 epidemic that is

Marshall Adler: 00:00:49

worldwide in scope and horrific in its effect on society in general.

Marshall Adler: 00:00:57

And as we all know on grief in particular.

Marshall Adler: 00:01:03

The COVID-19 pandemic has taken all of us out of our comfort zones in the sense that

Marshall Adler: 00:01:13

we as human beings are social animals.

Marshall Adler: 00:01:17

We have a need to interact with other humans to touch other humans,

Marshall Adler: 00:01:23

to have emotional response to our physical needs, to be hugged and

Marshall Adler: 00:01:30

to love each other physically.

Marshall Adler: 00:01:35

And that obviously has all changed due to the pandemic, which now requires us

Marshall Adler: 00:01:42

to do things that humans generally don't want to do, which is to isolate and to

Marshall Adler: 00:01:48

be wary of contact with other people.

Marshall Adler: 00:01:51

And I think the effect that this has had on society has obviously been clear

Marshall Adler: 00:01:57

to all of us in the year 2020, which has turned everything upside down.

Marshall Adler: 00:02:02

But I also think it's going to have long lasting societal facts,

Marshall Adler: 00:02:06

including how people grieve.

Marshall Adler: 00:02:10

And Steve, I know that as I mentioned many times before you have helped me and Debbie

Marshall Adler: 00:02:16

so much, when we first met at Grief Share, and you sorta gave great life lessons

Marshall Adler: 00:02:27

for all of us who were just starting on the road to grief about what you need

Marshall Adler: 00:02:33

to do, during your journey of grief and,

Marshall Adler: 00:02:38

I'd like to ask you to give us your sage advice that you usually give to

Marshall Adler: 00:02:44

people, dealing with grief and how the COVID-19 pandemic have changed that.

Steve Smelski: 00:02:51

Usually when Shelly and I kick off a new season, we've got people,

Steve Smelski: 00:02:57

a lot of people we've never met before.

Steve Smelski: 00:03:00

It's the first time we've met them.

Steve Smelski: 00:03:02

It's most likely the worst time of their life when they come in.

Steve Smelski: 00:03:06

Most of them have a hard time coming in the door and we'll usually tell our

Steve Smelski: 00:03:12

story what happened to us, and Jordan.

Steve Smelski: 00:03:17

And then we talk about the things that they need to make sure that they don't do.

Steve Smelski: 00:03:23

And the number one thing that we always bring up is don't isolate.

Steve Smelski: 00:03:29

Unfortunately in 2020 with COVID, we're all supposed to isolate.

Steve Smelski: 00:03:35

No hugs, no face to face talking.

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You're the only one in your home.

Steve Smelski: 00:03:41

It's completely opposite of that concept.

Steve Smelski: 00:03:46

And the whole thing is to not isolate yourself in your home and it just, you

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just sink further and further, with nobody to help you, nobody to reach out to.

Steve Smelski: 00:03:57

So I guess we need to talk about a way around that because what we

Steve Smelski: 00:04:02

normally say doesn't work right now.

Marshall Adler: 00:04:05

Steve, am I correct that you're actually doing Grief

Marshall Adler: 00:04:10

Share virtually in the sense that you're not even meeting in person for

Marshall Adler: 00:04:16

Grief Share, which is the core of our experience with Grief Share was talking

Marshall Adler: 00:04:23

to other people face to face, hugging other people, being close to them.

Marshall Adler: 00:04:28

And am I correct?

Marshall Adler: 00:04:29

You're not able to do that now?

Steve Smelski: 00:04:31

No, we're not.

Steve Smelski: 00:04:33

We started back in February for the spring season, we made it through five weeks

Steve Smelski: 00:04:39

and then we had to go into isolation.

Steve Smelski: 00:04:41

We'd never had to do that in the last six years.

Steve Smelski: 00:04:45

So we weren't sure how to finish.

Steve Smelski: 00:04:49

But we decided we would try doing a video conference call.

Steve Smelski: 00:04:53

We skipped one week and then went back to everybody and said,

Steve Smelski: 00:04:56

how would you like to join?

Steve Smelski: 00:04:57

We've had probably two thirds of the people say, yes, we want to try it.

Steve Smelski: 00:05:02

And we made it through the end of the program.

Steve Smelski: 00:05:05

And by the time we got to the last couple video sessions, everybody was used to it.

Steve Smelski: 00:05:12

They knew what to expect.

Steve Smelski: 00:05:13

They knew what we're going to cover when they get a chance to talk and

Steve Smelski: 00:05:17

share and the last session, I'm not sure anybody wanted to get off cause they

Steve Smelski: 00:05:22

knew it'd be the last time we'd be on a video call for a couple of months.

Marshall Adler: 00:05:27

It's interesting you mentioned that because, I've mentioned

Marshall Adler: 00:05:31

before that, since Matt passed and died by suicide, we've also been

Marshall Adler: 00:05:39

very involved in the suicide survivor community and we have done some zoom

Marshall Adler: 00:05:47

video conferencing with suicide survivors.

Marshall Adler: 00:05:52

And again, it is so different than what we're used to because usually

Marshall Adler: 00:05:56

we're in the same room talking and hugging and having physical contact.

Marshall Adler: 00:06:01

But the ironic thing is, in some ways, the isolation that we've all been going

Marshall Adler: 00:06:06

through has even made Zoom appealing.

Marshall Adler: 00:06:10

Because it's human contact you're not otherwise getting, because at

Marshall Adler: 00:06:16

least you're seeing somebody seeing their expressions, seeing how they're

Marshall Adler: 00:06:21

dealing with their grief on their face and it's better than nothing.

Marshall Adler: 00:06:28

So have you seen a positive response to the isolation that we're getting from the

Marshall Adler: 00:06:38

COVID-19 pandemic that we have to stay safe medically, but has the technology

Marshall Adler: 00:06:47

through the Zoom or whatever conferencing you're doing, been able to at least

Marshall Adler: 00:06:53

help minimize that and to some extent?

Steve Smelski: 00:06:56

I think so.

Steve Smelski: 00:06:57

I think we saw it through the end of the last Grief Share season.

Steve Smelski: 00:07:03

When you first go from in-person to video it's it's not the same.

Steve Smelski: 00:07:10

You're right.

Steve Smelski: 00:07:11

We are social animals.

Steve Smelski: 00:07:12

We like to like to be there.

Steve Smelski: 00:07:14

See the body language, see the emotions, hear the emotions, feel it during grief.

Steve Smelski: 00:07:20

There's an awful lot of emotions.

Steve Smelski: 00:07:22

A lot of us wear it on our sleeve.

Steve Smelski: 00:07:24

Showing up on a video is not the same as being in the same room.

Steve Smelski: 00:07:29

However, after about two or three weeks, I noticed that everybody was

Steve Smelski: 00:07:34

looking forward to the video call.

Steve Smelski: 00:07:36

Because it was the only interaction they were going to have.

Steve Smelski: 00:07:39

Some were working some work most work from home.

Steve Smelski: 00:07:43

And so just getting on video was awesome if you can't meet in person.

Steve Smelski: 00:07:48

Shelly and I went into isolation and we've got a group of friends,

Steve Smelski: 00:07:55

we'll have dinner with occasionally family would get together with.

Steve Smelski: 00:07:59

And after three weeks, we're all going nuts.

Steve Smelski: 00:08:01

Those first three weeks when we all had to isolate at home.

Steve Smelski: 00:08:05

So we got together video calls on a Saturday night.

Steve Smelski: 00:08:08

I think we did it the fourth weekend we're in isolation and then we waited

Steve Smelski: 00:08:13

a couple of weeks and did it once more.

Steve Smelski: 00:08:15

Every, we had a great time.

Steve Smelski: 00:08:16

We played some online games.

Steve Smelski: 00:08:19

I think there are eight or 10 of us, and it was awesome.

Steve Smelski: 00:08:22

After three or four weeks of not talking or seeing anybody to actually

Steve Smelski: 00:08:25

get on video and share it with friends.

Marshall Adler: 00:08:30

It's interesting you mentioned that because I, last

Marshall Adler: 00:08:34

night I was watching TV and they had a college professor on and he

Marshall Adler: 00:08:39

was talking about how the college experience is gonna be so different

Marshall Adler: 00:08:44

now because of the COVID-19 pandemic.

Marshall Adler: 00:08:49

Many colleges are going totally online.

Marshall Adler: 00:08:54

He specifically talked about Harvard.

Marshall Adler: 00:08:56

Harvard has decided to go online, I think definitely for the fall semester

Marshall Adler: 00:09:03

and maybe for the whole academic year.

Marshall Adler: 00:09:07

And what he said, something very interesting, he says Harvard will be

Marshall Adler: 00:09:13

charging $58,000 the regular tuition for.

Marshall Adler: 00:09:20

This, that he was trying to make a joke saying Netflix charges $120 a year.

Marshall Adler: 00:09:27

Harvard charging $58,000 a year for an online experience and what

Marshall Adler: 00:09:35

his joke was, he wasn't trying to equate Netflix to Harvard.

Marshall Adler: 00:09:39

But what he was saying is that we have to realize this is an opportunity.

Marshall Adler: 00:09:48

Because if we can get, not the same experience, but a comparable experience,

Marshall Adler: 00:09:59

whether it's through education or through grief, helping with grief, helping with

Marshall Adler: 00:10:05

the isolation, the loneliness, using the technology that we have now, it could

Marshall Adler: 00:10:13

be a wonderful thing in a sense that.

Marshall Adler: 00:10:17

His point was college has gotten so expensive that many families

Marshall Adler: 00:10:25

don't have the opportunity to send their children to school.

Marshall Adler: 00:10:29

But with technology now, having the wide range of people that could use

Marshall Adler: 00:10:39

it would hopefully allow more people to experience a college experience.

Marshall Adler: 00:10:48

Not on campus, but virtually, and he thought this would be

Marshall Adler: 00:10:52

a very good thing for society.

Marshall Adler: 00:10:54

So his point was something that is definitely going to change the college

Marshall Adler: 00:11:00

experience might ultimately be good for society by opening up the college

Marshall Adler: 00:11:08

experience to a wider range of people.

Marshall Adler: 00:11:11

Because it's gotten so expensive over the last 40 years, it's been priced out of a

Marshall Adler: 00:11:18

huge segment of the society that we have.

Marshall Adler: 00:11:21

And with grief, Lord knows we all need people in general and

Marshall Adler: 00:11:29

specifically when you're grieving.

Marshall Adler: 00:11:32

As I mentioned before, being Jewish, my whole life, there's

Marshall Adler: 00:11:35

something called Sitting Shivah.

Marshall Adler: 00:11:37

Where, when somebody loses a loved one, the whole Jewish community just

Marshall Adler: 00:11:42

basically takes over the families house.

Marshall Adler: 00:11:46

They bring food, they bring friends, family, to support them where all

Marshall Adler: 00:11:54

the family has to do is really just try to deal with their grief.

Marshall Adler: 00:12:01

And it's really a wonderful community support.

Marshall Adler: 00:12:04

But in this environment with COVID-19, it's an impossibility, it's the

Marshall Adler: 00:12:09

antithesis of social distancing.

Marshall Adler: 00:12:11

It's the antithesis of everything we need to do to keep ourselves physically safe.

Marshall Adler: 00:12:17

But it's obviously having that taken away from us is making us emotionally

Marshall Adler: 00:12:23

unsafe because we're in grief and we're very, very, very susceptible to

Marshall Adler: 00:12:31

emotions that are difficult to deal with.

Marshall Adler: 00:12:34

So what I'm hoping is that perhaps society will be able to use technology to help

Marshall Adler: 00:12:42

fill the gap that the COVID 19 pandemic has taken from our human experience.

Marshall Adler: 00:12:49

Because the last time this probably happened was a hundred years ago with

Marshall Adler: 00:12:52

the 1918 Spanish flu and very few people if anybody would be able to remember

Marshall Adler: 00:13:01

that be and be alive, this has happened a century ago, but I would assume that

Marshall Adler: 00:13:05

they had the same issues, then not being able to grieve the normal manner.

Marshall Adler: 00:13:10

And they didn't have the technology we have now.

Marshall Adler: 00:13:13

So I'm glad to hear that the response that you've had with Grief Share in

Marshall Adler: 00:13:20

a technological advanced method has been able to help people through grief

Marshall Adler: 00:13:26

experience that music is as good to hear.

Steve Smelski: 00:13:30

Yeah.

Steve Smelski: 00:13:30

That's an interesting topic you got to talking about because as students consider

Steve Smelski: 00:13:37

participating in college online, if you take that model and it's becoming normal

Steve Smelski: 00:13:45

for businesses now, because they've relocated employees to their home.

Steve Smelski: 00:13:50

I think you'll see permanent changes going forward.

Steve Smelski: 00:13:54

We've also realized from the grief process, though, when we meet in person,

Steve Smelski: 00:14:00

they have to be close enough to drive.

Steve Smelski: 00:14:03

And I realized I was working on our program for Fall and I reworded all of my

Steve Smelski: 00:14:09

documents because I realized we could have people joining from a different country.

Steve Smelski: 00:14:14

So it's kind of interesting our limitations.

Steve Smelski: 00:14:18

Yes, we can't meet in person.

Steve Smelski: 00:14:20

However, we can meet with people from other countries as part of the process.

Marshall Adler: 00:14:26

Right.

Marshall Adler: 00:14:27

That's interesting because I will tell you personally, through the COVID-19

Marshall Adler: 00:14:36

pandemic, we have used technology to stay in touch with others.

Marshall Adler: 00:14:41

Obviously you can text, you can email, but I like seeing people face to

Marshall Adler: 00:14:46

face and we have been using FaceTime, Zoom, Skype, WebEx, to see people.

Marshall Adler: 00:14:59

And I do think that that has helped us with the grief process.

Marshall Adler: 00:15:07

We recently had the anniversary of Matt's birthday and father's day

Marshall Adler: 00:15:17

mother's day, and as you know, all of these can be tough day to deal

Marshall Adler: 00:15:27

with when you lose a loved one.

Marshall Adler: 00:15:30

And I did find the technology helpful to see somebody.

Marshall Adler: 00:15:37

So, staying in touch physically obviously is the best case

Marshall Adler: 00:15:42

scenario, but it's not an option.

Marshall Adler: 00:15:46

And we almost have to become Darwinian, I think in some ways, because you

Marshall Adler: 00:15:53

know, some people misunderstood what Darwin was talking about, where they

Marshall Adler: 00:15:59

said, Oh, Darwin said survival of the fittest that actually wasn't with Darwin

Marshall Adler: 00:16:03

was saying, he was saying that his survival of those species that adapt.

Marshall Adler: 00:16:09

And humans are now in a position in general and it with grief and

Marshall Adler: 00:16:16

dealing with grief in particular, we're going to have to adapt.

Marshall Adler: 00:16:21

And at least for me personally, dealing with those days, that would be

Marshall Adler: 00:16:31

milestones in the grief process they made me think of my lost son, Matt.

Marshall Adler: 00:16:36

It has been helpful to use the available technology to stay in touch with others.

Steve Smelski: 00:16:43

I would agree with that.

Steve Smelski: 00:16:46

Isolation can make the feeling of grief and loneliness, much more intense.

Steve Smelski: 00:16:54

If you can't see somebody, you can't go meet somebody.

Steve Smelski: 00:16:58

You can't go to lunch with somebody.

Steve Smelski: 00:17:01

Maybe just getting on a video with them is enough for, you feel like

Steve Smelski: 00:17:07

you're not isolated, you got somebody's face right there in your room.

Steve Smelski: 00:17:12

You're able to communicate with them, share with them.

Steve Smelski: 00:17:16

I think he can reduce the loneliness.

Steve Smelski: 00:17:18

So, I would encourage anybody that's isolating right now, that's going through

Steve Smelski: 00:17:24

grief, and anytime you have an intense moment consider doing a FaceTime or

Steve Smelski: 00:17:30

a conference on a PC or a tablet with somebody they know, even if it's just a

Steve Smelski: 00:17:34

friend, if you know somebody who's also lost somebody, you guys could, could

Steve Smelski: 00:17:39

help each other through the process.

Marshall Adler: 00:17:43

Yes, Steve, you were very brave telling us in prior

Marshall Adler: 00:17:53

episodes, what it was like to be at the hospital when Jordan passed.

Marshall Adler: 00:18:03

I'd be interested in your thoughts, if in today's environment, you couldn't be there

Marshall Adler: 00:18:12

physically, but had to be there virtually.

Marshall Adler: 00:18:14

I'm very interested in your thoughts on that.

Steve Smelski: 00:18:18

Well, that's a tough one.

Steve Smelski: 00:18:22

When we took Jordan and he was admitted, we tried to take

Steve Smelski: 00:18:27

turns the first day or so.

Steve Smelski: 00:18:31

And then when he got moved to ICU, we actually didn't leave the hospital.

Steve Smelski: 00:18:38

I've heard stories that, um, in some cases the parents can only go one at a time.

Steve Smelski: 00:18:44

Uh, depending on the severity of the condition.

Steve Smelski: 00:18:49

If it's COVID, they may not be able to be in the room at all.

Steve Smelski: 00:18:53

The patients in isolation.

Steve Smelski: 00:18:55

So it depends on what the affliction is or what the sickness is, whether a

Steve Smelski: 00:19:00

parent or maybe a couple of parents can be with the patient at the same time.

Steve Smelski: 00:19:05

If it's COVID, you're most likely not going to be able to, and they're

Steve Smelski: 00:19:09

not going to be in a condition where you can see them on video.

Steve Smelski: 00:19:12

So that's a great question.

Steve Smelski: 00:19:16

How do you cope with the feeling of helplessness where you can't be there?

Steve Smelski: 00:19:23

You can't hold their hands.

Steve Smelski: 00:19:25

You can't spend time with them.

Steve Smelski: 00:19:26

You can't talk to them in most cases in COVID, if they're in the hospital or

Steve Smelski: 00:19:31

intubated, so they can talk back to you.

Steve Smelski: 00:19:36

It's, it's a lot different than what I would consider, going

Steve Smelski: 00:19:40

through the normal process.

Marshall Adler: 00:19:44

It's interesting you mentioned that because your

Marshall Adler: 00:19:48

experience with Jordan is so different than my experience with Matt.

Marshall Adler: 00:19:52

Cause I mentioned previous episodes that Matt passed away

Marshall Adler: 00:19:57

when he was 3000 miles away.

Marshall Adler: 00:20:00

And the last time I physically saw Matt and hugged him was 13 days before

Marshall Adler: 00:20:11

he passed away when he was at the airport, flying back to San Diego

Marshall Adler: 00:20:16

after seeing my mother in hospice.

Marshall Adler: 00:20:19

And I didn't know it at the time, but that was our goodbye.

Marshall Adler: 00:20:26

And although I know people would say, Oh, you were so cheated.

Marshall Adler: 00:20:31

You never got a chance to say goodbye.

Marshall Adler: 00:20:34

I don't feel cheated because, I did say goodbye in the sense

Marshall Adler: 00:20:44

that I told him I loved him.

Marshall Adler: 00:20:47

I told him I was so proud of the life that he had made for himself.

Marshall Adler: 00:20:54

And that's when Matt told me that he realizes now what happens to you

Marshall Adler: 00:20:59

in life, it's how you deal with it.

Marshall Adler: 00:21:01

And that's the greatest thing that a parent would ever want to hear from

Marshall Adler: 00:21:04

a child, so that was my goodbye.

Marshall Adler: 00:21:12

Cause that was the last time I saw him.

Marshall Adler: 00:21:14

And I've been on this planet 64 years and I've been able to learn that the

Marshall Adler: 00:21:24

one certainty in life is uncertainty.

Marshall Adler: 00:21:27

And if anything that we, as a society has learned from the COVID-19 pandemic is that

Marshall Adler: 00:21:34

nobody has tomorrow guaranteed for them.

Marshall Adler: 00:21:40

And you have to look at every single day as a gift.

Marshall Adler: 00:21:48

And so I think COVID has changed the ability of people to be there perhaps at

Marshall Adler: 00:21:59

the hospital when somebody, they loved is passing, but I think the lesson we

Marshall Adler: 00:22:07

all have to learn is don't wait for that.

Marshall Adler: 00:22:12

Don't think you're going to have that in your back pocket that you could pull

Marshall Adler: 00:22:17

out at any time, because you might not.

Marshall Adler: 00:22:20

And you want your loved ones to live as long as possible, but tell

Marshall Adler: 00:22:24

them when you see them that you love them, that you care for them.

Marshall Adler: 00:22:27

Because you don't know.

Marshall Adler: 00:22:30

That might be your goodbye.

Steve Smelski: 00:22:32

That is very true.

Steve Smelski: 00:22:35

I've had a lot of people come up and, and say, you know, we never

Steve Smelski: 00:22:41

got a chance to say goodbye.

Steve Smelski: 00:22:44

Whether it was a vehicle accident, something else, it was very quick.

Steve Smelski: 00:22:51

And, I do share with them that Shelly and I were with Jordan

Steve Smelski: 00:22:58

when he took his last breath.

Steve Smelski: 00:23:02

And I can tell you in those last 10 minutes, we never said goodbye.

Steve Smelski: 00:23:09

We continuously told him how much we loved him.

Steve Smelski: 00:23:13

So if you're feeling cheated because you never got a chance to say goodbye, don't.

Steve Smelski: 00:23:19

Because you would never say that to your loved one.

Steve Smelski: 00:23:22

You'd be telling them how much you love them.

Marshall Adler: 00:23:26

That's really interesting because, because Matt

Marshall Adler: 00:23:32

was 3000 miles away, that wasn't an issue that we ever dealt with.

Marshall Adler: 00:23:37

But hearing you say that really resonates with me.

Marshall Adler: 00:23:43

Cause I think you're right.

Marshall Adler: 00:23:46

I wouldn't say it could buy either.

Marshall Adler: 00:23:49

You just tell them how much you love them.

Marshall Adler: 00:23:50

Which is what I did when the last time I saw Matt and you know, I think

Marshall Adler: 00:23:57

we all see movies and think that, Oh, that's what everybody does and

Marshall Adler: 00:24:02

then you realize it's the movies.

Marshall Adler: 00:24:05

It's not necessarily what people do in life, or what do you want

Marshall Adler: 00:24:10

to do in your life if in fact, you know, that somebody is passing on.

Marshall Adler: 00:24:18

And I think that is something that COVID, again, is making all of us just

Marshall Adler: 00:24:24

look at the whole grief process so differently, and I'm at least enough

Marshall Adler: 00:24:32

of a optimist to realize throughout history, good has come out of bad.

Marshall Adler: 00:24:42

And that's hopefully what as a society, again, in general, and

Marshall Adler: 00:24:47

with grief in particular will result from the COVID-19 pandemic.

Steve Smelski: 00:24:52

I hope you're right.

Steve Smelski: 00:24:54

Let me ask you, do you remember in the early days, first few months,

Steve Smelski: 00:25:01

were you, you weren't yourself, you weren't thinking what you would call

Steve Smelski: 00:25:07

rationally, you would forget things?

Steve Smelski: 00:25:11

It was almost like you're only on 50% capacity.

Steve Smelski: 00:25:16

How would you equate how you felt then versus, cause it's almost like what

Steve Smelski: 00:25:22

we're going through on a daily basis, so if you've lost somebody in your, in the

Steve Smelski: 00:25:26

early stages of grief, how, how would you feel, or what would you say to them?

Marshall Adler: 00:25:36

It's a really good question.

Marshall Adler: 00:25:38

The early stages of grief are so difficult because again, nobody

Marshall Adler: 00:25:49

knows how they're going to react until you're in that position.

Marshall Adler: 00:25:54

You could talk to the cows come home about how you'll deal with

Marshall Adler: 00:26:00

this situation or that situation.

Marshall Adler: 00:26:03

But until the situation of grief is right in front of you,

Marshall Adler: 00:26:12

you don't know how you react.

Marshall Adler: 00:26:14

All I can say is, you know, you made a very good comment in an earlier

Marshall Adler: 00:26:20

episode that you and Shelly after Jordan's passing are different people.

Marshall Adler: 00:26:31

The people that existed before are different than the

Marshall Adler: 00:26:36

people that, that exist now.

Marshall Adler: 00:26:38

And I would agree with that.

Marshall Adler: 00:26:40

I can't sit here and say, Oh, I lost my son.

Marshall Adler: 00:26:44

I lost a child, I'm the same person I was beforehand.

Marshall Adler: 00:26:46

I'm not.

Marshall Adler: 00:26:47

I never will be.

Marshall Adler: 00:26:49

And I think that is the reality that once you're in the early stages of

Marshall Adler: 00:26:56

grief and even continuing through further steps along the journey of

Marshall Adler: 00:27:01

grief, you have to realize that to honor your loved one, who's no longer

Marshall Adler: 00:27:13

with us, they'd want you to survive and thrive at the best level possible.

Marshall Adler: 00:27:23

And to do that, you gotta eat, you gotta drink, you gotta exercise, you

Marshall Adler: 00:27:28

got to get rest, and you sorta have to realize life is for the living.

Marshall Adler: 00:27:36

And as long as we're here, you gotta make the most of it.

Marshall Adler: 00:27:40

Is it going to be the same?

Marshall Adler: 00:27:42

Of course not.

Marshall Adler: 00:27:43

But even with the pandemic we're going through, people are realizing

Marshall Adler: 00:27:52

I have to live a life that is as meaningful and as hopeful and

Marshall Adler: 00:27:58

is hopefully joyful as possible, even during a worldwide pandemic.

Marshall Adler: 00:28:05

So I would just say that if somebody is going through the early stages of grief,

Marshall Adler: 00:28:14

everybody's journey is unique to them and they're going to be dealing with

Marshall Adler: 00:28:20

issues and emotions and thoughts that are different from anything I experienced.

Marshall Adler: 00:28:26

But the universality of it is that we all have to take care of ourselves.

Marshall Adler: 00:28:34

We have to realize again, life is for the living and to do that, you have to take

Marshall Adler: 00:28:41

care of yourself in the best way possible.

Marshall Adler: 00:28:44

Even during a pandemic.

Steve Smelski: 00:28:46

Great point.

Steve Smelski: 00:28:49

One thing I wanted to ask you.

Steve Smelski: 00:28:52

I remember a week or two, after Jordan had passed, we had come out of shock.

Steve Smelski: 00:29:00

We'd gone through a second funeral service.

Steve Smelski: 00:29:05

And I remember like the rest of the world moved on and we were left behind and we're

Steve Smelski: 00:29:11

still, we're 11 and a half year old boy.

Steve Smelski: 00:29:15

And I felt like that was never going to change.

Steve Smelski: 00:29:17

It almost felt like everybody else moved on, the world moved on a

Steve Smelski: 00:29:22

hundred miles an hour and we would never catch up with it again.

Steve Smelski: 00:29:27

Do you think that's the same today with COVID?

Steve Smelski: 00:29:31

Because it doesn't feel that the world is moving as fast

Steve Smelski: 00:29:37

as what we would have before.

Steve Smelski: 00:29:40

Do you think that makes it easier as you start through grief right now?

Marshall Adler: 00:29:45

That's a very good point.

Marshall Adler: 00:29:48

I totally understand and relate to your feeling because you do feel

Marshall Adler: 00:29:54

that way because as I mentioned in the Jewish religion, when you

Marshall Adler: 00:29:59

have the community and friends and loved ones over Sitting Shivah,

Marshall Adler: 00:30:05

it's a wonderful thing, but it ends.

Marshall Adler: 00:30:08

The people that are helping you eventually have to go back to their

Marshall Adler: 00:30:13

homes, to their lives, to their loved ones and live their lives.

Marshall Adler: 00:30:17

Your life is not their life.

Marshall Adler: 00:30:19

Their life is not your life.

Marshall Adler: 00:30:21

So that is going to end and then you feel totally alone and you feel that

Marshall Adler: 00:30:28

the world is going on and without you.

Marshall Adler: 00:30:31

Which is absolutely a legitimate feeling to have.

Marshall Adler: 00:30:34

But for me personally, as I've gone through the grief process, and I

Marshall Adler: 00:30:43

think I actually mentioned this to you during one of the later stages

Marshall Adler: 00:30:50

of our, our Grief Share sessions is.

Marshall Adler: 00:30:54

I really sort of looked at things differently as time went by because you

Marshall Adler: 00:30:59

realize you're not the only one in the history of mankind that is grieving.

Marshall Adler: 00:31:08

In fact, the history of mankind shows that everybody will be grieving.

Marshall Adler: 00:31:16

I've said this before that if you're fortunate enough to live

Marshall Adler: 00:31:19

a long life, you're going to be grieving a lot because you're going

Marshall Adler: 00:31:23

to have people that you love pass.

Marshall Adler: 00:31:27

And if you don't live a long life, people you love, are going to be grieving you.

Marshall Adler: 00:31:33

So grief, is the one guarantee that as a human on this planet, you're going

Marshall Adler: 00:31:41

to experience one way or the other.

Marshall Adler: 00:31:45

Either people grieving you or you're grieving your loved ones.

Marshall Adler: 00:31:48

So, as time went on I realized that I wasn't alone.

Marshall Adler: 00:31:56

Look at human history.

Marshall Adler: 00:31:59

Look at how many people before us have lost loved ones, lost children,

Marshall Adler: 00:32:08

lost spouses, lost siblings, lost parents, and we're not unique.

Marshall Adler: 00:32:15

And in some ways, It just sort of gives you sort of context to realize you

Marshall Adler: 00:32:21

have to be on your own journey, but it is a journey of humanity because

Marshall Adler: 00:32:28

we're all going to be dealing with it.

Marshall Adler: 00:32:30

And I think the COVID-19 pandemic in some ways could have made that more pronounced.

Marshall Adler: 00:32:38

Because people that are losing loved ones now to the COVID-19 pandemic are

Marshall Adler: 00:32:48

realizing this is a worldwide disease that is taking lives in every continent

Marshall Adler: 00:32:59

and every country in, in, on the planet.

Marshall Adler: 00:33:02

Therefore, again, when it happens to you, you feel like you're totally

Marshall Adler: 00:33:07

alone and it's happening to nobody else, but then you realize over time

Marshall Adler: 00:33:12

it is happening to other people.

Marshall Adler: 00:33:14

And your timeline with your lost loved ones happened on the day

Marshall Adler: 00:33:20

they passed and other people just haven't had that timeline hit yet.

Marshall Adler: 00:33:25

It's a horrible thing to say, but we know for a fact, more

Marshall Adler: 00:33:29

people will pass from COVID-19.

Marshall Adler: 00:33:34

It's just the reality of the situation.

Marshall Adler: 00:33:36

So people that are not yet grieving because of this pandemic will be grieving

Marshall Adler: 00:33:43

in the future because of this pandemic.

Marshall Adler: 00:33:45

They just don't know it yet.

Marshall Adler: 00:33:46

So you never want anybody to experience grief, but

Marshall Adler: 00:33:53

intellectually, you know, they will.

Marshall Adler: 00:33:55

So I think to answer your question, I think the COVID-19 pandemic actually

Marshall Adler: 00:34:02

might, in some ways make the sense of uniqueness or loneliness or being

Marshall Adler: 00:34:11

completely out of step with the rest of the world in some ways lessened.

Marshall Adler: 00:34:15

Because you realize how widespread this pandemic is, how many people are losing

Marshall Adler: 00:34:23

loved ones and how many people therefore are joining you on their journey of grief.

Steve Smelski: 00:34:31

I do agree with that because I remember the

Steve Smelski: 00:34:34

first grief class we went into.

Steve Smelski: 00:34:40

I was scared.

Steve Smelski: 00:34:41

I didn't want to go through the door.

Steve Smelski: 00:34:43

Um, Shelly didn't either, we were so raw and grief.

Steve Smelski: 00:34:47

We couldn't even say Jordan's name.

Steve Smelski: 00:34:51

But after you get in there and you realize all those other people are in

Steve Smelski: 00:34:55

there, grieving, trying to get help, you realize I'm not the only one.

Steve Smelski: 00:35:03

And there's actually a little bit of comfort in that, knowing that

Steve Smelski: 00:35:07

you're seeking help in a class that many, many others are seeking help.

Steve Smelski: 00:35:13

So then you realize, okay, it's not just me.

Steve Smelski: 00:35:17

It's not the fact that I can't deal with the, or I can't, figure

Steve Smelski: 00:35:21

out how to deal with it, or I don't know how to deal with it.

Steve Smelski: 00:35:25

Everybody is in the same situation.

Steve Smelski: 00:35:27

That's why they're there.

Steve Smelski: 00:35:29

So there is a little bit of comfort in that.

Steve Smelski: 00:35:35

Let me ask you a question.

Steve Smelski: 00:35:37

A lot of people say the first week or two, we had people there staying

Steve Smelski: 00:35:43

with us, they helped us during COVID.

Steve Smelski: 00:35:46

That's not possible.

Steve Smelski: 00:35:48

We all have to isolate very seldom do you get people that can actually move in and

Steve Smelski: 00:35:53

stay with you in that grieving period?

Steve Smelski: 00:35:59

You can have a lot of people that don't know what to say to you.

Steve Smelski: 00:36:02

You have a lot of people that don't know how they can help you.

Steve Smelski: 00:36:06

You have a lot of people that don't know what to say to you, but they offer up

Steve Smelski: 00:36:13

some help or they say anything I can do to help you, please let me know,

Steve Smelski: 00:36:18

because I don't know what you need.

Steve Smelski: 00:36:21

What would you encourage them to do?

Steve Smelski: 00:36:24

Because now we're in isolation.

Steve Smelski: 00:36:26

In some cases we don't leave the house much, might need to pay

Steve Smelski: 00:36:30

somebody to come do some things.

Steve Smelski: 00:36:31

If somebody wants to offer up help, how would you coach

Steve Smelski: 00:36:35

somebody to respond to that?

Marshall Adler: 00:36:39

That's a really good question, because as you say, all the

Marshall Adler: 00:36:45

time tested rules for wanting to help somebody going through grief have been

Marshall Adler: 00:36:53

turned upside down and thrown out the window because of the COVID-19 medical

Marshall Adler: 00:36:59

requirements to keep us all safe.

Marshall Adler: 00:37:02

I think you almost have to really reinvent your thought process.

Marshall Adler: 00:37:13

I think you have to, I'm not, I won't be glib here, but on father's day,

Marshall Adler: 00:37:27

debbie did something that, again, I'm trying to make a example this,

Marshall Adler: 00:37:34

but, but not a comparison here.

Marshall Adler: 00:37:36

What she did, you know, I grew up in Buffalo, New York and

Marshall Adler: 00:37:41

anybody's ever been to Buffalo.

Marshall Adler: 00:37:42

They know that Buffalo is the home of Buffalo, chicken wings and

Marshall Adler: 00:37:46

people, Buffalo don't call Buffalo chicken wings, they call them wings.

Marshall Adler: 00:37:49

But everyone else that calls them Buffalo chicken wings, they're delicious.

Marshall Adler: 00:37:52

But there's all these other really good ethnic foods in Buffalo.

Marshall Adler: 00:37:58

Pizza, hot dogs.

Marshall Adler: 00:38:00

It's just fantastic.

Marshall Adler: 00:38:02

One thing that for whatever reason, I don't know why other parts

Marshall Adler: 00:38:07

of the country don't have it.

Marshall Adler: 00:38:09

There's frozen custard, which is an ice cream treat, but it's not ice cream.

Marshall Adler: 00:38:16

It's frozen custard.

Marshall Adler: 00:38:18

And people never had it.

Marshall Adler: 00:38:21

They eat it.

Marshall Adler: 00:38:21

They go, Oh my gosh, this is delicious.

Marshall Adler: 00:38:24

So what Debbie did for father's day is, and I'll give a free plug here.

Marshall Adler: 00:38:31

There's a frozen custard business in Buffalo called Anderson's Frozen Custard.

Marshall Adler: 00:38:39

I grew up on it.

Marshall Adler: 00:38:40

It's the most delicious.

Marshall Adler: 00:38:44

You can call it ice cream treat, but it's frozen custard that you'll ever have.

Marshall Adler: 00:38:48

And she was able to get this ship from Buffalo to our house in like 24 hours.

Marshall Adler: 00:38:57

And it was in a container totally frozen in dry ice and the fro

Marshall Adler: 00:39:03

and the custard, you don't eat it like hard packed ice cream.

Marshall Adler: 00:39:08

It's got to sort of get soft, like soft ice cream.

Marshall Adler: 00:39:11

So we let it melt and it was delicious.

Marshall Adler: 00:39:15

And I looked at Debbie, I go, this is a wonderful treat, but also

Marshall Adler: 00:39:21

I commended her on her thought process dealing with this pandemic.

Marshall Adler: 00:39:27

I can't fly up to Buffalo.

Marshall Adler: 00:39:28

I would go to Buffalo, see a Bill's game.

Marshall Adler: 00:39:31

What I would do, I'd get Anderson's frozen custard every time I go there.

Marshall Adler: 00:39:35

I'm not flying this year to Buffalo.

Marshall Adler: 00:39:37

They might even, even if I did that, you couldn't even go to a Bill's game because

Marshall Adler: 00:39:40

you can't have a NFL game with any fans.

Marshall Adler: 00:39:44

So my point being is Debbie found a different way to help me on father's day.

Marshall Adler: 00:39:53

It sounds silly, but it helped getting Anderson's Frozen Custard on our doorstep.

Marshall Adler: 00:39:59

And so when it comes to grief, I think people that want to help.

Marshall Adler: 00:40:05

And again, I'm not trying to be funny here.

Marshall Adler: 00:40:06

If somebody knows somebody from Buffalo, sending something like

Marshall Adler: 00:40:13

Anderson's Frozen Custard could help.

Marshall Adler: 00:40:14

Why is part of their DNA growing up.

Marshall Adler: 00:40:20

It made me feel good to eat Anderson's Frozen Custard because I felt like I was

Marshall Adler: 00:40:26

eight years old again with my parents.

Marshall Adler: 00:40:31

And I will tell you, I've taken Matt to Anderson's frozen Custard so many

Marshall Adler: 00:40:36

times when we go to Bill's games together, that it made me think fondly

Marshall Adler: 00:40:41

of wonderful times I had with Matt.

Marshall Adler: 00:40:44

So my point being is all the old rules are thrown out the window.

Marshall Adler: 00:40:51

But just come up with new rules.

Marshall Adler: 00:40:53

And for us, Anderson's Frozen Custard would sure do the

Marshall Adler: 00:40:58

trick because we love it.

Marshall Adler: 00:41:00

I'm not saying everybody needs to do that, but there's an example of how to take

Marshall Adler: 00:41:06

where we are as a society and still try to help somebody through the grief process.

Steve Smelski: 00:41:11

By the way, you're making me hungry.

Steve Smelski: 00:41:15

I do love desserts.

Marshall Adler: 00:41:18

Delicious!

Steve Smelski: 00:41:20

That's unique and yet that's really neat at the same time.

Steve Smelski: 00:41:24

I think what I would say is we had so many people offer to help.

Steve Smelski: 00:41:31

They didn't know what we needed, but they would offer and say, if you need anything.

Steve Smelski: 00:41:37

A lot of times we would say, Oh, we're good.

Steve Smelski: 00:41:39

We're fine.

Steve Smelski: 00:41:40

We're doing okay.

Steve Smelski: 00:41:41

Oh, thank you.

Steve Smelski: 00:41:42

We're good.

Steve Smelski: 00:41:44

I would coach somebody now.

Steve Smelski: 00:41:46

To figure out a way, how they can help you.

Steve Smelski: 00:41:51

Once you realize that people are willing to step out of their way to show you that

Steve Smelski: 00:41:56

they care, they realize you're grieving.

Steve Smelski: 00:41:59

You're having a difficult time.

Steve Smelski: 00:42:01

You can't do the normal things.

Steve Smelski: 00:42:04

I mean, we're all suffering with that piece.

Steve Smelski: 00:42:06

So the fact that they're willing to offer it up, I would say, you know what?

Steve Smelski: 00:42:11

That's really nice.

Steve Smelski: 00:42:12

Yeah, I could, um, I could use some of this or if you could drop some of

Steve Smelski: 00:42:17

this by, so I didn't have to go out.

Steve Smelski: 00:42:19

I have a hard time leaving the house, which is absolutely

Steve Smelski: 00:42:22

true, we did for months.

Steve Smelski: 00:42:24

Maybe they'd just drop it by the house for you, if they're out

Steve Smelski: 00:42:26

shopping, they pick it up for you.

Steve Smelski: 00:42:29

So the fact that you got something that's really special and came

Steve Smelski: 00:42:33

from your past, that's awesome.

Steve Smelski: 00:42:35

But don't be afraid to say yes.

Marshall Adler: 00:42:41

I would agree with that.

Marshall Adler: 00:42:42

Again, it's just, I think again, not just with the COVID-19 pandemic, but with

Marshall Adler: 00:42:49

so many things in grief, you're right.

Marshall Adler: 00:42:54

Don't be afraid.

Marshall Adler: 00:42:56

I think people are so afraid to say the wrong thing to make somebody

Marshall Adler: 00:43:00

feel worse than they already do losing a loved one, but just.

Marshall Adler: 00:43:08

Being there trying to help and figure out a way to be the best

Marshall Adler: 00:43:18

human contact you can with somebody going through the grief process.

Marshall Adler: 00:43:25

It's not easy for any of us.

Marshall Adler: 00:43:29

So don't be afraid to do the best you can.

Marshall Adler: 00:43:32

And if something doesn't work it doesn't mean you should stop trying, just keep

Marshall Adler: 00:43:39

on looking for an alternative that does.

Marshall Adler: 00:43:44

I think that applies to grief in general and specifically with

Marshall Adler: 00:43:48

grief in the age of COVID-19.

Steve Smelski: 00:43:52

I would agree with that, absolutely.

Steve Smelski: 00:43:56

The thing to remember right now, as you're grieving, everybody is going

Steve Smelski: 00:44:03

through a loss of something right now.

Steve Smelski: 00:44:06

Globally.

Steve Smelski: 00:44:06

We all are.

Steve Smelski: 00:44:08

I don't think anybody's doing a normal life, maybe New Zealand,

Steve Smelski: 00:44:12

but I think pretty much the rest of the world is, it's not normal.

Steve Smelski: 00:44:18

It's out of sync.

Steve Smelski: 00:44:20

People are missing doing things.

Steve Smelski: 00:44:22

So you're not alone in your suffering.

Steve Smelski: 00:44:27

One of the things I wanted to bring up and it reminded me of

Steve Smelski: 00:44:31

a story that somebody told me.

Steve Smelski: 00:44:35

People can say the most worst comments to you after you've lost your loved one.

Steve Smelski: 00:44:46

And your first response is to blow them out of the water and just go,

Steve Smelski: 00:44:51

how could you ever say that to me?

Steve Smelski: 00:44:54

And I would encourage you to take a different take on it.

Steve Smelski: 00:45:00

Um, I remember people come up and say something in the grocery

Steve Smelski: 00:45:04

store and I look at them and I'm like, is that supposed to help me?

Steve Smelski: 00:45:10

That's like a horrible things to say, but people ask us now.

Steve Smelski: 00:45:14

Well, what should we say?

Steve Smelski: 00:45:15

And it's like, I've been through grief.

Steve Smelski: 00:45:18

I've lost my son and we don't always know the right thing to say, but

Steve Smelski: 00:45:24

a friend of ours was telling us he had lost his daughter, many years

Steve Smelski: 00:45:30

before, and he got onto a plane and he sat down next to this lady.

Steve Smelski: 00:45:37

And somehow the conversation came around to children and he had

Steve Smelski: 00:45:43

gone ahead and shared that his daughter died several years before.

Steve Smelski: 00:45:48

And she put her hand on his arm and she said, Oh, I am so sorry.

Steve Smelski: 00:45:56

I know exactly how you feel.

Steve Smelski: 00:46:00

I lost my cat a couple of weeks ago and I was crushed.

Steve Smelski: 00:46:06

I'd had her for like 17 years.

Steve Smelski: 00:46:09

And I remember him saying, I know what you're going to say.

Steve Smelski: 00:46:12

You're going to say, what'd you, what'd you say back?

Steve Smelski: 00:46:14

And he goes, you know what?

Steve Smelski: 00:46:16

It occurred to me when I saw her expression and how sad her face was.

Steve Smelski: 00:46:23

She actually took an effort to understand the level of my pain.

Steve Smelski: 00:46:32

And she took the thing that was closest that she had just experienced

Steve Smelski: 00:46:35

and she understood, even though she could never touch the level of pain

Steve Smelski: 00:46:40

that I was experiencing, she tried.

Steve Smelski: 00:46:44

And he said I started to get mad and then I realized she actually did it in a very

Steve Smelski: 00:46:49

loving way and tried to put herself in my seat, with the feelings that I had and

Steve Smelski: 00:46:56

I realized, and I said, Oh, thank you.

Steve Smelski: 00:47:00

That's very nice of you.

Steve Smelski: 00:47:02

And I realized she did her best to try to understand where I was at.

Steve Smelski: 00:47:07

And rather than just level on her, I was like, wow, she

Steve Smelski: 00:47:12

tried to understand my pain.

Steve Smelski: 00:47:15

So even though your initial thought is to just say, how could you even say that

Steve Smelski: 00:47:21

to me, try and put yourself in their shoes of not knowing what to say, but

Steve Smelski: 00:47:26

the fact that they took and made the effort to try and compare it to something

Steve Smelski: 00:47:31

that they had to compare it to and try to understand the extent of the pain,

Steve Smelski: 00:47:35

even though they can't, they tried.

Marshall Adler: 00:47:40

It's interesting.

Marshall Adler: 00:47:41

You mentioned that Steve, because it made me think of two things.

Marshall Adler: 00:47:44

My mother always said, be kind to people, even if they're not kind

Marshall Adler: 00:47:51

to you, because you don't know what type of day they're having.

Marshall Adler: 00:47:56

And she mentioned, you don't know if they just lost a loved one and you

Marshall Adler: 00:47:59

don't know what's going on in their head between their ears, which is true.

Marshall Adler: 00:48:05

And there's an old story I'm old enough to remember.

Marshall Adler: 00:48:11

Steve Allen was the comedian who was the first host of the

Marshall Adler: 00:48:17

tonight show people think, Oh, Johnny Carson was the first host.

Marshall Adler: 00:48:20

No, it was Steve Allen, Jack Parr, Johnny Carson, and Jimmy Fallon now.

Marshall Adler: 00:48:26

And Steve Allen told a story that is a little bit of an analogy.

Marshall Adler: 00:48:34

And again, these things they're not comparable, but they're sort

Marshall Adler: 00:48:37

of like a little illustrative here.

Marshall Adler: 00:48:40

He said that he was on the show back then it was shot in New York, it was

Marshall Adler: 00:48:45

like live and there was some incredible act that was on, I forgot what the

Marshall Adler: 00:48:50

act was, and the crowd would just was so appreciative except there was

Marshall Adler: 00:48:55

one guy sitting there not clapping.

Marshall Adler: 00:48:59

And he looked at the guy and he goes, what's wrong with that guy?

Marshall Adler: 00:49:03

He goes, this a credible act everybody's clapping and really giving their

Marshall Adler: 00:49:07

appreciation for this incredible.

Marshall Adler: 00:49:09

And Steve Allen said, it's sort of ticked him off, like, what's wrong with this guy?

Marshall Adler: 00:49:14

Why isn't he clapping for this?

Marshall Adler: 00:49:16

And, you know, comedians can go out in the audience and say

Marshall Adler: 00:49:20

funny things that sometimes are funny, but also sort of hurtful.

Marshall Adler: 00:49:24

So Steve Allen goes, I'm gonna show this guy.

Marshall Adler: 00:49:26

Again, this is live TV.

Marshall Adler: 00:49:28

He goes.

Marshall Adler: 00:49:29

He was going to go up to the audience before the commercial break and talk

Marshall Adler: 00:49:33

to this guy and, you know, and say, Hey, do you like this great act?

Marshall Adler: 00:49:37

And you know, the guy was gonna say, yeah.

Marshall Adler: 00:49:39

And then he was going to say, well, what's wrong with you?

Marshall Adler: 00:49:41

Don't you have any hands?

Marshall Adler: 00:49:42

Why wasn't clapping?

Marshall Adler: 00:49:43

And he said, right before he saw that he saw the guy had no

Marshall Adler: 00:49:48

hands, he was a double amputee.

Marshall Adler: 00:49:52

And he said, thank God I bit my tongue and didn't say that.

Marshall Adler: 00:50:00

Because obviously it would have been unbelievably hurtful and a horrible

Marshall Adler: 00:50:05

thing to say on national live TV.

Marshall Adler: 00:50:08

The point being is you don't know what people are going through.

Marshall Adler: 00:50:15

And what Steve Allen thought was an insult.

Marshall Adler: 00:50:19

And you're trying to make fun of it.

Marshall Adler: 00:50:20

It literally was because this man had no hands, he was a double amputee.

Marshall Adler: 00:50:26

And I think with grief, you have to do the same thought process in a sense that you

Marshall Adler: 00:50:34

don't know what people are thinking and it's hard for them sometimes too correctly

Marshall Adler: 00:50:44

put their thoughts together in a way that would be appropriate in the difficult

Marshall Adler: 00:50:54

situation, trying to console somebody.

Marshall Adler: 00:50:56

So I think what you said was a great story by giving people a break,

Marshall Adler: 00:51:02

they're doing the best they can.

Marshall Adler: 00:51:04

And I think what's my mother, my mother said about, you don't know what

Marshall Adler: 00:51:07

somebody's going through and Steve Allen realizing why was I even thinking

Marshall Adler: 00:51:12

about saying something like this?

Marshall Adler: 00:51:15

When I should have realized maybe he doesn't have hands.

Marshall Adler: 00:51:17

I think having people doing the best they can to help somebody through the grief

Marshall Adler: 00:51:24

grief process is a exercise and tolerance.

Marshall Adler: 00:51:30

And Lord knows we all need that in today's world with the pandemic and everything

Marshall Adler: 00:51:37

else that has happened in the world.

Marshall Adler: 00:51:38

So I think it's a very good point.

Marshall Adler: 00:51:39

You brought up.

Steve Smelski: 00:51:41

Thank you.

Steve Smelski: 00:51:44

There was a couple other things I wanted to touch on.

Steve Smelski: 00:51:49

Right now with everybody in isolation some people are agreeing by themselves.

Steve Smelski: 00:51:56

Some people are grieving with others in the home.

Steve Smelski: 00:52:01

I would say, please remember everyone grieves differently.

Steve Smelski: 00:52:08

If you're grieving with somebody you're both not going to be on

Steve Smelski: 00:52:11

the same page in your grief.

Steve Smelski: 00:52:14

So you just want to make sure you extend a little bit of courtesy to

Steve Smelski: 00:52:18

each other, because you're not going to be at the same spot at the same time.

Steve Smelski: 00:52:24

So I just wanted to bring that out.

Steve Smelski: 00:52:27

That happens all the time.

Steve Smelski: 00:52:30

If you're alone, I would suggest trying to reach out to somebody, somebody

Steve Smelski: 00:52:34

that, you know, Even if it's just a neighbor or a friend, and we mentioned

Steve Smelski: 00:52:41

video calls, sometimes it's nice just to see another face when you're in

Steve Smelski: 00:52:44

isolation, but, um, just remember everybody has their own journey of grief.

Steve Smelski: 00:52:51

Nobody's going to understand what you're at all the time.

Marshall Adler: 00:52:56

That's absolutely true.

Marshall Adler: 00:52:58

I will tell you that Debbie and I are on different journeys.

Marshall Adler: 00:53:05

As a mother, she sees it differently than I do as a father.

Marshall Adler: 00:53:09

And we've learned to give each other wide birth in the sense of, again,

Marshall Adler: 00:53:18

being tolerant of each other's journey.

Marshall Adler: 00:53:23

Because it's not right.

Marshall Adler: 00:53:25

It's not wrong.

Marshall Adler: 00:53:27

It's just your journey.

Marshall Adler: 00:53:29

And I think your journey is going to be unique to you.

Marshall Adler: 00:53:34

But you have to have tolerance for all their other people and other journeys.

Marshall Adler: 00:53:37

I think it's very, very good point.

Marshall Adler: 00:53:39

Steve.

Marshall Adler: 00:53:41

One thing I think that I like to mention is the fact that Matt passed by suicide

Marshall Adler: 00:53:49

is obviously something that is going to be with me the rest of my life,

Marshall Adler: 00:53:54

because I'm very involved in the suicide prevention suicide survivor community.

Marshall Adler: 00:54:03

And my fear is that the COVID-19 pandemic could have a very negative effect on

Marshall Adler: 00:54:19

the suicide rates throughout the world.

Marshall Adler: 00:54:23

And again, it's to be determined what the longterm effects of this

Marshall Adler: 00:54:30

pandemic will be, but I've heard many medical and mental health experts very

Marshall Adler: 00:54:40

concerned about the issue of suicides and somebody that obviously is dealing

Marshall Adler: 00:54:51

with grief, is experiencing emotions that they probably never felt before.

Marshall Adler: 00:55:00

And you add in the societal changes from the pandemic, it could be a difficult

Marshall Adler: 00:55:10

situation where the issue of suicide might be something that has to be dealt with.

Marshall Adler: 00:55:18

And I always tell anybody that I'm ever in contact with to contact a medical,

Marshall Adler: 00:55:29

mental health professional immediately, if there's ever issues of suicidal

Marshall Adler: 00:55:36

ideation or suicide, suicidal thoughts.

Marshall Adler: 00:55:39

There is a national suicide prevention hotline calling 911 can also be

Marshall Adler: 00:55:51

an option for people that are in a situation where they think that

Marshall Adler: 00:55:58

either themselves or somebody else's in a life threatening situation.

Marshall Adler: 00:56:02

So, I think as part of the COVID-19 effect on the grief process in

Marshall Adler: 00:56:13

particular society in general is we all have to be more cognizant of things

Marshall Adler: 00:56:18

like suicide that we weren't before.

Marshall Adler: 00:56:21

And I think it's important for everybody to realize there are people and programs

Marshall Adler: 00:56:28

that you can and should reach out to if you or somebody else is in need of

Marshall Adler: 00:56:38

medical, mental health treatment due to a potentially life threatening situation.

Steve Smelski: 00:56:45

Great point.

Steve Smelski: 00:56:46

Marshall, thank you for calling that out.

Steve Smelski: 00:56:50

I know we've talked about a future episode.

Marshall Adler: 00:56:55

Yes.

Marshall Adler: 00:56:56

Steve, I think it would be very helpful for our listening audience

Marshall Adler: 00:57:01

to tune into our future episode on suicide because obviously my journey

Marshall Adler: 00:57:10

of grief has been profoundly affected by the fact that Matt died by suicide.

Marshall Adler: 00:57:19

And I've talked to many, many, many people that lost loved ones from suicide and the

Marshall Adler: 00:57:34

grief journey they're on is different than other peoples journeys that lost loved

Marshall Adler: 00:57:43

ones from reasons other than suicide.

Marshall Adler: 00:57:47

So, I invite our listening audience to please listen in to our future

Marshall Adler: 00:57:54

episode on suicide, because I think it'll be very illustrative as to the

Marshall Adler: 00:58:00

specifics of dealing with the loss of a love and a suicide, but also

Marshall Adler: 00:58:05

generally with the grief process.

Marshall Adler: 00:58:07

Because again, everybody's journey is unique, but there are common principles

Marshall Adler: 00:58:17

that we all can use to survive and thrive through the grief process as

Marshall Adler: 00:58:25

our loved ones would want us to do, because again, life is for the living.

Steve Smelski: 00:58:32

Thank you for sharing that Marshall.

Steve Smelski: 00:58:35

That'll be one of our up and coming episodes.

Steve Smelski: 00:58:39

Um, we realized when we got together for this episode of COVID, that the suicide

Steve Smelski: 00:58:47

was we'd have to come right after that and, and cover the topic of suicide.

Steve Smelski: 00:58:54

As we wrap up this issue today, I also wanted to mention that, um, a

Steve Smelski: 00:59:00

lot of the health care professionals are doing counseling online now.

Steve Smelski: 00:59:06

If you're struggling at home, you're in isolation, haven't been going

Steve Smelski: 00:59:10

out it's okay because a lot of the doctor's visits now, or either online,

Steve Smelski: 00:59:15

via video or just a, a phone call.

Steve Smelski: 00:59:18

So there's also options for counseling today, online, as well as a grief program.

Steve Smelski: 00:59:25

There's plenty of those available as well.

Steve Smelski: 00:59:27

So we just want to make sure that everybody has all the information that

Steve Smelski: 00:59:31

they need to help them on their journey.

Steve Smelski: 00:59:35

And so I want to say thank you for joining us today.

Steve Smelski: 00:59:39

I know through grief and Marshall, thanks for helping us out.

Marshall Adler: 00:59:44

Steve.

Marshall Adler: 00:59:44

Thanks so much for again, your great insight and your great guidance to me in

Marshall Adler: 00:59:52

particular and to our audience in general.

Marshall Adler: 00:59:54

And I look forward to talking to you everybody next week.

Steve Smelski: 00:59:57

Thanks everybody.

Marshall Adler: 00:59:58

Stay well.

Marshall Adler: 00:59:59

Thank you.

Steve Smelski: 01:00:01

Thank you for joining us on hope through grief with your

Steve Smelski: 01:00:04

cohost Marshall Adler and Steve Smelski.

Steve Smelski: 01:00:07

We hope

Marshall Adler: 01:00:08

our episode today was helpful and informative.

Marshall Adler: 01:00:12

Since we are not medical or mental health professionals, we cannot

Marshall Adler: 01:00:18

and will not provide any medical, psychological, or mental health advice.

Marshall Adler: 01:00:24

Therefore, if you or anyone, you know, requires medical or mental health

Marshall Adler: 01:00:29

treatment, please contact a medical or mental health professional immediately.