Episode 6

Kubler-Ross Model Five Stages of Grief

Published on: 9th July, 2020

Everyone tries to break grief down into a list of neat little stages. However, grief doesn’t always work, or feel that way. Everyone may experience the emotions of grief differently and in a much different order. 

Today we will examine and discuss in detail Dr. Elisabeth Kubler-Ross’ model of the Five Stages of Grief*. Dr. Kubler-Ross developed this model in 1969. The model includes the stages of:

  • (2:05) Overiew Kubler-Ross model
  • (4:14) Denial*
  • (8:31) Anger*
  • (13:01) [Guilt]
  • (16:53) Bargaining*
  • (19:53) Depression*
  • (25:51) Acceptance*
  • (31:40) [Control]
  • (37:32) [Additional Clinical Lists for Another Time]

While Dr. Kubler-Ross identified 5 particular stages or parts, it is important to realize there are many subsets and emotions for each of these. It is also important to realize grief “is not linear” so you may not experience these in this order, or only once. Because Dr. Kubler-Ross developed this model from observing patients experiencing grief, rather than from a personal experience, we don’t necessarily experience grief in this order. 

There are many links to different pages discussing this model, here are two of them: https://grief.com/the-five-stages-of-grief/ and https://psychcentral.com/lib/the-5-stages-of-loss-and-grief/   Marshall and Steve discuss these topics, as well as a couple more in this episode of Hope Thru Grief. 

We welcome your comments and questions! Send an email to hopethrugrief@gmail.com and please share our show with anyone you know that is struggling with loss and grief. You can find us on the internet to continue the conversation!

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Jordan Smelski Foundation: http://www.jordansmelskifoundation.org

Tune in for new episodes every Thursday morning wherever you listen to podcasts!

Marshall Adler and Steve Smelski, co-hosts of Hope Thru Grief are not medical, or mental health professionals, therefore we cannot and will not give any medical, or mental health advice. If you, or anyone you know needs medical or mental health treatment, please contact a medical or mental health professional immediately.

Thank you

Marshall Adler

Steve Smelski

Transcript
Marshall Adler:

Hello.

Marshall Adler:

I want to thank you so much for listening today.

Marshall Adler:

I'm here with my good friend and cohost Steve Smelski.

Marshall Adler:

Steve's just say hi to the audience for a second.

Steve Smelski:

Sure, hello Marshall and hello everyone.

Steve Smelski:

Welcome to today's.

Steve Smelski:

Episode of Hope thru Grief.

Marshall Adler:

Again, want to thank our audience so much for listening in, and

Marshall Adler:

today is going to be a very interesting and a little different episode than we

Marshall Adler:

usually do, because we're going to be looking at the clinical lists of grief.

Marshall Adler:

You and I have done some research and we've seen that there's basically four

Marshall Adler:

different clinical lists of grief, the most famous one being the five stages

Marshall Adler:

of grief that Elizabeth Kubler Ross started in the late 1960s ,actually

Marshall Adler:

was 1969, and many people I've heard of her stages of grief and the five stages

that she listed our:

denial, anger, bargaining depression, and acceptance.

that she listed our:

And Steve ,I've mentioned in prior episodes that you have been incredibly

that she listed our:

helpful, not just to me and to Debbie, but to literally hundreds of people

that she listed our:

through your work with grief share, which we were fortunate enough to

that she listed our:

join a few weeks after Matt died.

that she listed our:

So.

that she listed our:

What I want to do today is to ask you some questions, not only

that she listed our:

based on your personal experience with the loss of your son, Jordan.

that she listed our:

But also based on your experience as the leader of the grief share program

that she listed our:

that you helped me and Debbie through our journey right after we lost Matt.

that she listed our:

So again, I'm going to ask you.

that she listed our:

What are your impressions of the different clinical lists, but specifically, I want

that she listed our:

to ask you about the Elizabeth Kubler Ross Model, the five stages of grief:

that she listed our:

denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance that I mentioned.

that she listed our:

I'm really interested in your personal observations as to the validity and the

that she listed our:

truthfulness and helpfulness of the Kubler Ross Model, where we'll start there today.

Steve Smelski:

Marshall.

Steve Smelski:

I think the items that she has identified and written in her book

Steve Smelski:

are all some of th stages that a grieving person would go through.

Steve Smelski:

However, I know she came up with her list through observations of other

Steve Smelski:

grieving people, and it's not so much a reflection of somebody actually

Steve Smelski:

going through the grieving process.

Steve Smelski:

It's more as an observer, seeing what they were going through from the outside.

Steve Smelski:

So I know she's had some regrets on how it was interpreted and, and misunderstood

Steve Smelski:

over the years after she wrote the book.

Steve Smelski:

And I would say, first of all, it's not linear.

Steve Smelski:

And that's one of the things that she recognized.

Steve Smelski:

So.

Steve Smelski:

We all like lists, we all like to check things off our list and say, okay, we've

Steve Smelski:

finished it .Grief is not like that.

Steve Smelski:

She's got her five steps because you check out number one, which was denial

Steve Smelski:

doesn't mean that you don't go back to it.

Steve Smelski:

And you..

Steve Smelski:

you may re revisit it multiple times.

Steve Smelski:

You may skip one, you may not have anger issues going through your grief.

Steve Smelski:

You may go right tobargaining, but that doesn't mean you couldn't go back to the

Steve Smelski:

denier or anger or in the other order.

Steve Smelski:

So it is not linear.

Steve Smelski:

And doesn't mean that you can't reach it multiple times.

Steve Smelski:

So I know for me personally, and some of the people I've spoken with.

Steve Smelski:

If you have a list, it's all about checking it off the list,

Steve Smelski:

getting it done and moving on.

Steve Smelski:

And that doesn't work very well for grief.

Marshall Adler:

Let me ask you this.

Marshall Adler:

I'm looking at the list and the first one I see is denial.

Marshall Adler:

And I will tell you personally with Matt's passing, that absolutely is something

Marshall Adler:

that I can tell you I did experience.

Marshall Adler:

Because obviously ,when you have a child, you just assume that you

Marshall Adler:

are going to pass before they do.

Marshall Adler:

And when we got the call from the medical examiner in San Diego, some 3000 miles

Marshall Adler:

away, that Matt passed away, you just feel like you're having an out of body

Marshall Adler:

experience that this is not happening.

Marshall Adler:

I think every parent worries about their children and knows that people

Marshall Adler:

lose children every single day.

Marshall Adler:

It's just a reality of it's a horrible tragedy, but it happens.

Marshall Adler:

But you assume it won't happen to you until it does.

Marshall Adler:

And so the denial.

Marshall Adler:

I think most people say, Oh, of course you experienced that early on.

Marshall Adler:

Well, I'll tell you I still experienced almost two years after Matt's passing

Marshall Adler:

because I dream almost every single night that Matt is still alive.

Marshall Adler:

And my relationship with Matt now is different.

Marshall Adler:

Obviously he's not physically here but my relationship with him is for

Marshall Adler:

whatever reason through my dreams.

Marshall Adler:

I can't control my dreams more than anybody else can on this planet.

Marshall Adler:

But for whatever reason, my relationship with Matt is actually more intense

Marshall Adler:

and intimate now in his death.

Marshall Adler:

And it wasn't his life cause he was 3000 miles away when he was in San Diego, we

Marshall Adler:

would talk and FaceTime things like that.

Marshall Adler:

But I didn't see him every day because he was in San Diego.

Marshall Adler:

Sometimes we're able to text.

Marshall Adler:

Sometimes we're able to talk.

Marshall Adler:

Sometimes we able to FaceTime.

Marshall Adler:

The FaceTime, we couldn't do it every day, but I see him every day now my

Marshall Adler:

dreams, and that is obviously an aspect of denial because he's not physically here.

Marshall Adler:

And I don't think anybody would assume that this was part of the Kubler Ross

Marshall Adler:

five stages of grief model almost two years after Matt's passing.

Marshall Adler:

Have you experienced anything like that with denial?

Steve Smelski:

Yes.

Steve Smelski:

First of all, let me say most parents that have lost a child would be very

Steve Smelski:

jealous because I've only had two or three dreams of Jordan since he passed.

Steve Smelski:

Shelley's only had two or three.

Steve Smelski:

Our sister-in-laws had more dreams with Jordan coming to

Steve Smelski:

her in the dream than we have.

Steve Smelski:

So to have that every day, I would say that it is very, very fortunate.

Steve Smelski:

I would, I would love to have some more dreams at Jordan.

Marshall Adler:

I guess it's nothing I can control.

Marshall Adler:

That just happens.

Marshall Adler:

I have no idea why, but it happens.

Steve Smelski:

I understand.

Steve Smelski:

Because we go to bed hoping to dream and we don't, we don't dream of Jordan.

Steve Smelski:

As far as the denial piece goes.

Steve Smelski:

I think it was five to six months that every time the front doorbell

Steve Smelski:

rang, one of us would hurry to the door to look out the door.

Steve Smelski:

And the first thing we thought of is Jordan he's coming home because when

Steve Smelski:

he left to go play with his friends and stuff, he would come up to the

Steve Smelski:

front door, he would ring the door we go running we would open the door

Steve Smelski:

and say, "hey, welcome home, Jordan."

Steve Smelski:

How, how was your day?

Steve Smelski:

How was your trip?

Steve Smelski:

How was the theme parks?"

Steve Smelski:

Whatever, so I would classify that as a form of denial.

Steve Smelski:

Like when I talked about making these lists, we like to check them off.

Steve Smelski:

Nobody would expect that anything on that list could take two

Steve Smelski:

years and still not be done with.

Marshall Adler:

Its interesting because I sorta knew this list.

Marshall Adler:

I heard of it, but I obviously didn't look at it until after Matt's

Marshall Adler:

passing and I'm looking at it now.

Marshall Adler:

And the next one is anger.

Marshall Adler:

And for whatever reason, I never really felt anger.

Marshall Adler:

I never felt rage, anger.

Marshall Adler:

It just was not an, a emotion I experienced again emotion by definition.

Marshall Adler:

They're not rational.

Marshall Adler:

So I can't tell you why I didn't experience anger.

Marshall Adler:

Somebody would, I'm sure they could say you lost your son.

Marshall Adler:

How come you weren't angry?

Marshall Adler:

Maybe because I was appreciative of the life that he led while he was here.

Marshall Adler:

And I was proud of the life that he led while he was here.

Marshall Adler:

And I always knew we're all here a short time, Matt did not

Marshall Adler:

have the longevity that I hoped.

Marshall Adler:

But he made the most of the time he was here, it was a

Marshall Adler:

quantity versus quality argument.

Marshall Adler:

that to me, I was not angry because I knew he made the

Marshall Adler:

most of his time on this earth.

Marshall Adler:

So that's not an emotion I really, or stage I can really relate to.

Marshall Adler:

Did you have issues with anger after Jordan's passing?

Steve Smelski:

Yes, I did.

Steve Smelski:

I had a lot of issues until it was explained to me that the emotions

Steve Smelski:

come on,you like a set of waves on an ocean and that will knock you over.

Steve Smelski:

Sometimes they'll roll the over you end up in the surf or in the sand, and then

Steve Smelski:

you get up and you wait for the next one.

Steve Smelski:

When you go into anger the first time.

Steve Smelski:

Nobody lets you know, when it's going to end or how long it's going to last.

Steve Smelski:

Until it subsides and goes away, I wasn't sure it was ever going to go away.

Steve Smelski:

I think the first bout of anger I had lasted three or four weeks.

Steve Smelski:

I went through several counseling sessions and several the grief program

Steve Smelski:

meetings before it finally end.

Steve Smelski:

It felt good to get through it because I was very, I was angry at everything

Steve Smelski:

and it's hard to live with somebody that's grieving and not have anger and

Steve Smelski:

they wonder if you're angry at them.

Steve Smelski:

But I realized, I was angry at what happened to Jordan at that resort.

Steve Smelski:

It was a five star resort.

Steve Smelski:

We found out the owner knew about the Ameoba.

Steve Smelski:

In fact, he knew it was called Naegleria Fowleri .He knew that half a one part

Steve Smelski:

per million or a billion, what actually killed the Ameoba and never did anything.

Steve Smelski:

And he had to put up a sign after Jordan died, but we knew that

Steve Smelski:

wasn't going to save anybody.

Steve Smelski:

It wouldn't keep you out of the water.

Steve Smelski:

But the anger came back four times after that didn't last as

Steve Smelski:

long, sometimes it'd be two weeks.

Steve Smelski:

Then it was like a week, sometimes it's three or four days, then it was a week and

Steve Smelski:

then it ended up a few more days later.

Steve Smelski:

So I have had an issue with anger and I would say over 90% of the people

Steve Smelski:

that Shelly and I have spoken with all had anger at some point, maybe

Steve Smelski:

it didn't come back that many times.

Steve Smelski:

I think it's fairly rare that somebody doesn't experience anger

Steve Smelski:

after that the death of a loved one.

Marshall Adler:

Who were most of these people angry at were

Marshall Adler:

the angry at themselves, at society, at God, at the world?

Marshall Adler:

Who were they angry at?

Steve Smelski:

Yes.

Steve Smelski:

All of those,

Marshall Adler:

all the above.

Steve Smelski:

They had different reasons, different thoughts on it.

Steve Smelski:

I think it was more of a coping mechanism because we don't like to think.

Steve Smelski:

Cause I would say the guilt part comes from feeling your response over.

Steve Smelski:

It's easier to be angry at somebody else than to even consider that you might've

Steve Smelski:

been responsible on the guilt side of it.

Steve Smelski:

So I would say I heard all of those as reasons and many, many more.

Marshall Adler:

It's interesting.

Marshall Adler:

You mentioned guilt because.

Marshall Adler:

My mother always thought and told me that guilt was the most useless

Marshall Adler:

emotion because it doesn't change anything at all does is hurt you.

Marshall Adler:

And I think that always sort of stuck in my head and I never really

Marshall Adler:

had issues of guilt because as you mentioned, the underpinning of guilt

Marshall Adler:

is that you could have done something.

Marshall Adler:

To control the situation when obviously that's not the case.

Marshall Adler:

If I could have done something to make sure Matt would not have passed away, I

Marshall Adler:

absolutely positively would have done it.

Marshall Adler:

The reason I didn't do it is because I could never do it.

Marshall Adler:

I never had that control and we do not have control over.

Marshall Adler:

Who's going to live, orwho's going to, I've mentioned this before in

Marshall Adler:

the Jewish religion during the high holiday service called Rosh Hashanah.

Marshall Adler:

Rosh Hashanah means the beginning of the new year.

Marshall Adler:

There's a passage that always did make sense to me.

Marshall Adler:

And it states at the beginning of the new year, it's already written, who's going

Marshall Adler:

to live and who's going to die and even as a little kid, I sort of believe that.

Marshall Adler:

But I know that people here on earth didn't know who was going

Marshall Adler:

to live or who was going to die.

Marshall Adler:

We just sort of have to accept that it's already written down somewhere.

Marshall Adler:

We just don't know where it's written and we can't read what it says or

Marshall Adler:

when it says, so the guilt part was never an issue with me because I just

Marshall Adler:

felt that I learned a long time ago.

Marshall Adler:

There is no control over who's going to live.

Marshall Adler:

Who's going to die.

Marshall Adler:

Have you had similar experience either with yourself, with Jordan's passing

Marshall Adler:

or through people at grief share?

Steve Smelski:

Yes, Shelly and I both experienced some guilt and I think

Steve Smelski:

that an anger go closely intertwined.

Steve Smelski:

So when you're angry at somebody else, you don't have to feel guilty o what's

Steve Smelski:

really worrying you or bothering you.

Steve Smelski:

It was the second time we went to Costa Rica.

Steve Smelski:

We had plans fall out for a different location, and we were like, man,

Steve Smelski:

if we had just followed through on that, we never would have gone

Steve Smelski:

back and we'd still have a Jordan.

Steve Smelski:

Not true, Shelley felt guilty that she bought the plane tickets to go

Steve Smelski:

back and she threw that around for a couple months until we processed

Steve Smelski:

it and realized we had no control.

Steve Smelski:

For me, I was guilty because Jordan wanted to go tubing on the river instead of

Steve Smelski:

going to that pool that he and I played well, that time down the water slide.

Steve Smelski:

And I was like, wow, he wanted to do something else.

Steve Smelski:

And I talked him out of it.

Steve Smelski:

And after about two months of feeling guilty about it, I realized that

Steve Smelski:

the tub ride was maybe an hour, we still would have ended up in that

Steve Smelski:

pool, just maybe not six hours worth.

Steve Smelski:

And then you realize we've got no control over it.

Steve Smelski:

Many of the other people that we've we've had the privilege of

Steve Smelski:

walking through the journey of their grief and came alongside of them.

Steve Smelski:

Many of them had the guilt issue.

Steve Smelski:

Some were much heavier on the guilt than they were on anger at anything else.

Steve Smelski:

So I would say, yes, we both experienced, and we've met others that have.

Marshall Adler:

It's interesting, it's interesting to me how it is just so

Marshall Adler:

different and everybody's always on their own journey of grief and it's not right.

Marshall Adler:

It's not wrong.

Marshall Adler:

It just is what it is.

Marshall Adler:

And I'm looking at the next list and the next factor on the list, next stage on

Marshall Adler:

the Kubler Ross model is, is bargaining.

Marshall Adler:

And I never really experienced that either.

Marshall Adler:

It's not like I know some people feel they would say, Oh, I'll change

Marshall Adler:

this change that if it can only get my loved one back, or I promise this

Marshall Adler:

to whether it is God or to somebody else in their family or someone they

Marshall Adler:

love, or society, or the universe.

Marshall Adler:

But again, I, I personally never dealt with that emotion because

Marshall Adler:

again, to me, it was on a supposition that if you're bargaining, you had

Marshall Adler:

control that if I, if I could do XYZ, I'll get the result that I want.

Marshall Adler:

And I know that life and death doesn't work like that.

Marshall Adler:

If you do XYZ, it doesn't mean you're not going to lose a loved one.

Marshall Adler:

You could do everything under the sun correctly, based on every medical

Marshall Adler:

recommendation, legal recommendation, psychological recommendation.

Marshall Adler:

From the world's leading experts and you can still lose a loved one.

Marshall Adler:

So again, the bargaining was sort of a control issue that I knew I, I

Marshall Adler:

didn't have, so I never dealt with it.

Marshall Adler:

Did you experience any issues like that?

Steve Smelski:

I don't think I ever did going through the process after

Steve Smelski:

Jordan's passing, I do want to be clear.

Steve Smelski:

I think Shelly and I are still going through the grief process.

Steve Smelski:

We, we haven't gotten to the end of our journey.

Steve Smelski:

You still have difficult days.

Steve Smelski:

This week, we ended up going through his closet and we gave some of his

Steve Smelski:

clothes away and we were both emotional.

Steve Smelski:

We both cried.

Steve Smelski:

So while we're down the road, we are not over the journey.

Steve Smelski:

I don't remember going through a bargaining phase.

Steve Smelski:

I don't think Shelly did.

Steve Smelski:

I've I've met a few and they may have changed some things going forward.

Steve Smelski:

But you can't change the past.

Steve Smelski:

So I'm not sure how the bargaining works out is as an advantage.

Steve Smelski:

I think it a lot of the bargaining gets back to the denial phase.

Steve Smelski:

I, those two are kind of tied, I think, but....

Marshall Adler:

Yes, it's interesting that you mentioned about not being dealt

Marshall Adler:

with the grief process, and I will tell you that I am convinced that the grief

Marshall Adler:

process for me and Debbie, uh, we'll continue for the rest of our lives.

Marshall Adler:

I believe we'll never be done with it.

Marshall Adler:

I think this is something that is going to be in our house for as long

Marshall Adler:

as we're taking breatjs on this planet.

Marshall Adler:

I've just accepted that, which is ironically see the last stage.

Marshall Adler:

But before I get to acceptance the fourth stage, I want to, that I do want to tell

Marshall Adler:

you that I did experience is depression.

Marshall Adler:

Because I have generally not had issues with depression during my lifetime

Marshall Adler:

until Matt passed away and losing Matt totally gave me a new understanding

Marshall Adler:

and insight into depression.You know, people think that oh, somebody is

Marshall Adler:

depressed and if they just suck it up, they can move and do whatever they need

Marshall Adler:

to do to get through the depression.

Marshall Adler:

It's just not true.

Marshall Adler:

You look at some of the great figures in the history of the

Marshall Adler:

world like Winston Churchill.

Marshall Adler:

I know Winston Churchill called his depression, the black dog, and he

Marshall Adler:

fought it every day of his life.

Marshall Adler:

So he was literally fighting depression as he was fighting the Nazis to try

Marshall Adler:

to help save the world for freedom.

Marshall Adler:

And he didn't ask for it, couldn't control it and did the best he could with it.

Marshall Adler:

You know, he, he drank a lot and he did a lot of things.

Marshall Adler:

I think we're out of depression.

Marshall Adler:

So to me, I know that Matt was hilarious he just was such a funny guy.

Marshall Adler:

He broke me up thoughout his whole life and because he was so darn funny,

Marshall Adler:

I always thought that his humor would be the ultimate defense mechanism and

Marshall Adler:

would guard him from any adverse affects of any depression that he had cause I

Marshall Adler:

knew that he did deal with depression.

Marshall Adler:

And now I realize that the illusion or delusion that I had about humor

Marshall Adler:

and man's quick wit being a safe harbor for him from his depression.

Marshall Adler:

It just wasn't true because I can see now that the depression

Marshall Adler:

will come on irrespective of what is happening in my life.

Marshall Adler:

I 've learned that depression is inside out, not outside in.

Marshall Adler:

Some people will say, Oh, this thing was so wonderful this person

Marshall Adler:

was doing so many great things.

Marshall Adler:

How could they be depressed?

Marshall Adler:

Those are all outside things that we're seeing, that the person from the

Marshall Adler:

inside looking out doesn't quantify as a answer to the to their depression.

Marshall Adler:

You know, I mentioned this before, I think so many people with

Marshall Adler:

depression are like icebergs.

Marshall Adler:

You know, icebergs only one tenth of the iceberg is above the water

Marshall Adler:

line, which means 90% of the icebergs below the waterline.

Marshall Adler:

The Titanic didn't get destroyed by the one tenth iceberg that they saw.

Marshall Adler:

It was a 90% below the water line that destroyed the Titanic and I think that is

Marshall Adler:

the way you have to look at depression.

Marshall Adler:

So for me, I have a total different understanding and

Marshall Adler:

appreciation of what people go through that deal with depression.

Marshall Adler:

So have you had a similar experience with that stage?

Steve Smelski:

Yes, I have.

Steve Smelski:

And I would say that's a very good analogy of it.

Steve Smelski:

I had some bouts of depression before Jordan died, so I have struggled with

Steve Smelski:

it off and on throughout my life.

Steve Smelski:

We've had a lot of depression since Jordan has died.

Steve Smelski:

A lot of it comes up, uh, before one of the big holidays that we

Steve Smelski:

were close when shared with him or one of the anniversary dates.

Steve Smelski:

So.

Steve Smelski:

It can hit you out of the blue.

Steve Smelski:

It could come from a trigger.

Steve Smelski:

I mean, it's even on a good day.

Steve Smelski:

You can, you can fall prey to it.

Steve Smelski:

I would say almost every single person that we've met and walked alongside with

Steve Smelski:

them through their journey has struggled with depression at one point or another.

Marshall Adler:

Yes, it's just part of the deal.

Steve Smelski:

And that's, that's a lot of people and I know sometimes

Steve Smelski:

you're worried youknow, is this normal?

Steve Smelski:

Am I my working through my grief correctly?

Steve Smelski:

Am am I just different?

Steve Smelski:

And the answer's no, it's very normal to feel the depression part and,

Steve Smelski:

um, that one you can move on and come back and move on and come back

Steve Smelski:

and over and over and over again.

Marshall Adler:

Yes.

Marshall Adler:

I'm amazed how it will hit me at the most surprising times, driving in a car,

Marshall Adler:

hearing a song, seeing something on TV, seeing a movie clip, and it just comes on

Marshall Adler:

like a wave from the ocean, just knocking on your feet, off your, off your feet.

Marshall Adler:

It really does.

Marshall Adler:

And I never really understood it or appreciated it until after Matt's passing.

Marshall Adler:

The last stage that was in the Kubler Ross model was acceptance.

Marshall Adler:

And to me, I did some research that I think sort of applies to this

Marshall Adler:

because I saw the Kubler Ross had some regrets of the misunderstanding

Marshall Adler:

of the stages, things like that.

Marshall Adler:

And there's been writings that she made that thought that meaning could be

Marshall Adler:

considered a sixth stage of grief and acceptance/meaning to me is sort of the

Marshall Adler:

more accurate way to describe it because.

Marshall Adler:

I'll never accept emotionally the fact that my son's not here anymore.

Marshall Adler:

Intellectually, obviously I've had to accept because he isn't here.

Marshall Adler:

But the journey of trying to understand the meaning of somebody's life has been

Marshall Adler:

helpful to me with accepting Matt's death because I believe that we're

Marshall Adler:

all here for a short time and it's not how, or when you die, it's how you

Marshall Adler:

lived your life when you were here and Matt although he didn't have the, he

Marshall Adler:

did not have the gift of longevity.

Marshall Adler:

He did have the gift of humanity, kindness, compassion that

Marshall Adler:

made the quality of his life.

Marshall Adler:

Something that I'll be proud of the rest of my life.

Marshall Adler:

So the meaning of his life to me is something I'm very proud of trying to

Marshall Adler:

figure out the meaning of his death is probably way above my pay grade because

Marshall Adler:

it's a metaphysical universal question I can't answer why he died, but he did.

Marshall Adler:

And the meaning that I get out of his life gives me comfort and peace.

Marshall Adler:

Knowing that while he was here, he made the most of it.

Marshall Adler:

And the one thing I can say about the meaning of his death is that

Marshall Adler:

I feel there's been a spill over from the good work Matt did in

Marshall Adler:

his life while he was here onto me because he's not here anymore.

Marshall Adler:

So I want the meaning of his life to continue through

Marshall Adler:

his death, through my work.

Marshall Adler:

And that's why I believe the meaning and acceptance for me is sort of related.

Marshall Adler:

And that's one of the reasons I'm doing this podcast with you to

Marshall Adler:

try to make the meaning of his life, continue through his death.

Marshall Adler:

So my question to you is.

Marshall Adler:

What's your experience with acceptance and or meaning

Marshall Adler:

? Steve Smelski: Those are great questions.

Marshall Adler:

As far as the acceptance part, we all reached that point on our own cause

Marshall Adler:

everybody's got their own journey.

Marshall Adler:

I actually think I realized that a while ago, I've still struggled

Marshall Adler:

with the depression after that.

Marshall Adler:

I think she was right to question whether a sixth stage should be the meaning part.

Marshall Adler:

I've tried to stay away from the meaning of Jordan's death and why

Marshall Adler:

he had such a short life here.

Marshall Adler:

And I've tried to look more at the meaning of my life and what

Marshall Adler:

I'm going to do after his death.

Marshall Adler:

So qI would go around in circles and it would really tear me up to consider the

Marshall Adler:

meaning of why he had to die at 11 1/2.

Marshall Adler:

It was much easier for me ,cause ,I rationalized it

Marshall Adler:

that he wasn't coming back.

Marshall Adler:

No matter how many times I ran to that front door, it wasn't going

Marshall Adler:

to be Jordan ringing the doorbell.

Marshall Adler:

So I think I, I started to realize that he was gone he wasn't coming back.

Marshall Adler:

And as far as meaning, it was easier to keep me out of the depression, by focusing

Marshall Adler:

on something that I could change with what I was going to focus on going forward.

Marshall Adler:

We've spent a lot of time working on his foundation and tackling

Marshall Adler:

things that nobody ever had, and we never thought we could change.

Marshall Adler:

And I think the meaning part was easier for me to look at the meaning of the

Marshall Adler:

rest of my life than it was to look at how short the meaning of his life was.

Marshall Adler:

I will say that the majority of the people that we've come alongside and

Marshall Adler:

shared with and spoken with, they all have a hard time with acceptance.

Marshall Adler:

Obviously we don't like it.

Marshall Adler:

We'd rather they're here with us.

Marshall Adler:

As far as meaning, there's a lot of people that are still looking for that, they

Marshall Adler:

don't, they don't know what that means.

Marshall Adler:

They don't know where it's going to take them.

Marshall Adler:

I think that may be the hardest one to figure out.

Marshall Adler:

It's interesting because I'm, I'm looking at this list and it

Marshall Adler:

sort of takes me back to my father.

Marshall Adler:

You know, my father had mentioned before by I had two brothers die.

Marshall Adler:

One was older than me.

Marshall Adler:

One was younger than me.

Marshall Adler:

I don't remember either one because they died when I was very young.

Marshall Adler:

And so my father had grief obviously but my father just was the happiest

Marshall Adler:

guy I've ever known in my life.

Marshall Adler:

And he occasionaly, would get depressed, but not really very long.

Marshall Adler:

And he always told me that there's two different things in life.

Marshall Adler:

There's those things in life that you can control and because

Marshall Adler:

you can control those things.

Marshall Adler:

He would say, I'm not gonna worry about it.

Marshall Adler:

And then there's other things that you cannot control.

Marshall Adler:

And he would tell me, because you cannot control those things he would

Marshall Adler:

say, I'm not gonna worry about it.

Marshall Adler:

Which sounds sort of funny because he basically saying I'm not gonna worry

Marshall Adler:

about anything, which wasn't exactly true.

Marshall Adler:

He did worry about things.

Marshall Adler:

And my mother was a Jewish mother nurse who took whatever

Marshall Adler:

my father wouldn't worry about.

Marshall Adler:

She would multiply that by 10,000 times and she would do all

Marshall Adler:

the worrying for both of them.

Marshall Adler:

So there was enough worry in our household believe me, but it sort of

Marshall Adler:

made sense to me when my father was saying with this Kubler Ross Stages

Marshall Adler:

of Grief, because I couldn't control Matt's life or his death, but I can

Marshall Adler:

control how I react to it by making the meaning of his life after his death go

Marshall Adler:

through me, because I want to do the good things that he can't do here anymore.

Marshall Adler:

And it's sort of made me look at the Kubler Ross Model just differently from

Marshall Adler:

the standpoint of what my father said about things you can and can't control.

Marshall Adler:

And, you know, death is the ultimate mystery because you've had philosophers

Marshall Adler:

and geniuses much brighter than I'll ever be pontificating on it and realistically

Marshall Adler:

they know no more or less than we do.

Marshall Adler:

They haven't been there when they were writing those things.

Marshall Adler:

They may know about it now because they're no longer here, but maybe they were right.

Marshall Adler:

Maybe they were wrong.

Marshall Adler:

We'll all find out eventually.

Marshall Adler:

So in some crazy way, it does sort of give me peace and contentment based on what my

Marshall Adler:

father said, because the life and death cycle, I can't control it ,never could,

Marshall Adler:

so you're probably better off listening to my father and not worrying about it.

Steve Smelski:

I think your dad had a wonderful way of looking

Steve Smelski:

at it and dealing with it.

Steve Smelski:

I know I would be much better off if I had approached it that way.

Steve Smelski:

I do want to add then when we talk about these stages, there are so many

Steve Smelski:

different pieces and each one different emotions, different feelings, diff..

Steve Smelski:

different things that we deal with so we're not going to break it down

Steve Smelski:

into just these we'll go deeper into all of the different pieces we

Steve Smelski:

haven't talked about, but your dad's got a great way of looking at it.

Marshall Adler:

He just was a very funny guy.

Marshall Adler:

And it's funny because him and Matt were very close.

Marshall Adler:

Matt was very close to my parents and I saw a lot of similarities with my

Marshall Adler:

father and Matt and I saw a lot of similarities with my mother and Matt,

Marshall Adler:

he just was very close with them.

Marshall Adler:

They, they moved here.

Marshall Adler:

When my, when my parents retired man was about three or four years old.

Marshall Adler:

So he spent an enormous part of his life with his grandparents.

Marshall Adler:

And I always was hopeful that my father's zest for life and happiness

Marshall Adler:

would rub off on Matt because I knew that Matt did deal with depression

Marshall Adler:

and in a lot of ways it did.

Marshall Adler:

But again, it was control or lack thereof that I realize now was nothing that my

Marshall Adler:

parents or myself nor Matt ever had.

Marshall Adler:

And that's a lesson that I've learned since Matt's passing.

Marshall Adler:

And I think the Kubler Ross Model again, can be informative, but as

Marshall Adler:

you said, it's not linear and it has different meanings for different people.

Marshall Adler:

So from my experience, after man's passing, there are bits and pieces

Marshall Adler:

of the five stages of grief in the Kubler Ross Model that I can relate to.

Marshall Adler:

And then there's other parts that I can't.

Marshall Adler:

And I know no, we were going to talk about the other clinical lists, but

Marshall Adler:

we got so deep into the Kubler Ross model that I think we're going to

Marshall Adler:

have to wait till our next episode to discuss those other clinical Liz,

Marshall Adler:

because Steve, you've got such a unique insight that I appreciate you sharing

Marshall Adler:

with us because not only can you and I talk about our individual experiences.

Marshall Adler:

But you've had the unique opportunity through grief share

Marshall Adler:

to talk to so many people who've been on their own journey of grief.

Marshall Adler:

And you've got an insight from them that obviously been very

Marshall Adler:

informative and helpful hopefully to the audience today to hear that.

Marshall Adler:

So for that, I'd like you to, I'd like to thank you so much for giving us our

Marshall Adler:

insight, but unfortunately I think we have to close this episode and address

Marshall Adler:

these other clinical lists down the road because they are different and I think

Marshall Adler:

they do have different dynamics to it.

Marshall Adler:

But again, I'd be very, very, very interested in your insights because

Marshall Adler:

I think you've got a unique ability to analyze these clinical lists.

Marshall Adler:

That would be very helpful and informative.

Marshall Adler:

For me and our audience.

Marshall Adler:

So again, I'm looking forward to addressing those issues

Marshall Adler:

with you in future episodes.

Marshall Adler:

Well, thank you for allowing me them to come out and share with everybody.

Marshall Adler:

I hope everybody finds it helpful.

Marshall Adler:

There's nothing easy about grief.

Marshall Adler:

We'll go deeper into a lot of those different steps and we'll cover

Marshall Adler:

some of the extra items from some of the other lists, but I think we'll

Marshall Adler:

all find it hopeful that almost everyone has a similar journey.

Marshall Adler:

It's always different.

Marshall Adler:

Your relationship with your loved one is unique.

Marshall Adler:

So even a husband and wife will have a different journey or a path to follow.

Marshall Adler:

But there is something to be gained about knowing that you're not unique.

Marshall Adler:

And you're the only one that's feeling it.

Marshall Adler:

I 'absolutely agree with that and it does show you that there truly is hope

Marshall Adler:

through grief, and that is something that.

Marshall Adler:

We would like the audience to get from our show.

Marshall Adler:

So again, Steve, I'd like to thank you so much for giving us your insights today.

Marshall Adler:

And I want to thank the audience so much for listening.

Marshall Adler:

I hope it was informative and helpful, and we look forward

Marshall Adler:

to talking to you very soon.

Steve Smelski:

Thank you, Marshall and thank you everybody for

Steve Smelski:

joining us on hope through grief.

Marshall Adler:

Thank you so much.

Steve Smelski:

Thank you for joining us on Hope thru Grief with your cohosts

Steve Smelski:

Marshall Adler and Steve Smelski.

Marshall Adler:

We hope our episode today was helpful and informative

Marshall Adler:

since we are not medical or mental health professionals, we cannot

Marshall Adler:

and will not provide any medical, psychological, or mental health advice.

Marshall Adler:

Therefore, if you or anyone, you know, requires medical or mental health

Marshall Adler:

treatment, please contact a medical or mental health professional immediately.

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About the Podcast

Hope Thru Grief
Our mission is to create a community to bring hope through grief. Providing healing through our first hand experiences. Each day provides us an opportunity to continue to heal, as we get to meet and help others.
Have you recently lost a loved one? Are you struggling with grief? Don’t understand why the world has moved on and you are stuck? Wondering what will help? Have you lost all hope you will get back to any kind of “normal”?

Hope Thru Grief features husband and wife co-hosts Steve Smelski and Shelly Smelski to discuss their journeys of grief, after losing their son and other family members. They have changed their focus in life since their son’s death and have been helping others to find the support and answers they have been searching for.

Expect the unexpected. Honest and transparent discussions will reveal things hidden and overlooked which are quite common in coping with grief. Steve & Shelly will interview people from all walks of life, sharing their journeys of loss, as well as experts on recovery and finding hope in a world that has been changed forever.

If you are struggling with your grief, let’s talk together about ways to find healing in your journey and make it more meaningful and life-changing.

New Episodes every Thursday morning.

About your hosts

Randy Magray

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Randy has been producing podcasts for a decade as a creator, writer, host, and post-production specialist. He currently is the Podcast Producer for Duck Duck Productions in Orlando Florida and has worked extensively with the Smelski's on Hope Thru Grief and their Jordan Smelski Foundation for Amoeba Awareness.

Steve Smelski

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