Episode 17

Herb Knoll and His Widower Support Group

Published on: 24th September, 2020

Grief is a topic no one wants to study, or learn about, until you are in it. It’s a “if it hasn’t happened to me yet, I certainly don’t want to mention it” kind of thing. Herb Knoll lost his wife Michelle to cancer in 2008 after having been her care giver for 39 months. When Herb went to find a book about grief as a widower, he discovered there were none! So, Herb began researching and writing his book The Widower’s Journey: Helping Men Rebuild After Their Loss, available on Amazon. After completing the book Herb decided there still wasn’t enough support for Widowers, so he started the Widower’s Support Network.  Herb is also founder and host for the Widower’s Journey Podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/widowers-journey/id1473762540). 

Please join us for an interesting discussion with Herb Knoll on today’s Hope Thru Grief as we touch on subjects like why are men so vulnerable, why the support material for widower’s so limited and what are the challenges in grief for men?

 

If you’d like to purchase a copy of Herb’s book The Widower’s Journey: Helping Men Rebuild After Their Loss you may contact Herb directly at Herb@widowerssupportnetwork.com and if you mention the discount code Hope you’ll receive a 15% discount of the purchase price of his book!

 

We welcome your comments and questions! Send an email to hopethrugrief@gmail.com and please share our show with anyone you know that is struggling with loss and grief. You can find us on the internet to continue the conversation!

 

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Jordan Smelski Foundation: http://www.jordansmelskifoundation.org

 

Tune in for new episodes every Thursday morning wherever you listen to podcasts!

 

Marshall Adler and Steve Smelski, co-hosts of Hope Thru Grief are not medical, or mental health professionals, therefore we cannot and will not give any medical, or mental health advice. If you, or anyone you know needs medical, or mental health treatment, please contact a medical, or mental health professional immediately.

 

Thank you

Marshall Adler

Steve Smelski

Transcript
Steve Smelski:

I love everybody and welcome to today's

Steve Smelski:

episode of Hope Thru Grief.

Steve Smelski:

I'm Steve Smelski and I'm here with my good friend and cohost Marshall Adler

Marshall Adler:

Hello, everybody.

Marshall Adler:

Hope everybody's doing well today.

Steve Smelski:

We have a special show for you today.

Steve Smelski:

We have a guest speaker with us today, Mr.

Steve Smelski:

Herb Knoll.

Steve Smelski:

He's a friend of ours and we've gotten to know him over the last few years.

Steve Smelski:

I think you're going to enjoy his story and all of the

Steve Smelski:

different things that he's doing.

Steve Smelski:

Marshall why don't I turn it back to you and we'll start with our first question.

Marshall Adler:

Thank you, Steve.

Marshall Adler:

Herb, first of all, I want to thank you so much for agreeing to be a guest today.

Marshall Adler:

And before we start, I want to tell our audience, you know, Herb's a great guy

Marshall Adler:

because of before we, uh, went on air.

Marshall Adler:

Herb and I were reminiscing about both growing up Buffalo, New York, which is the

Marshall Adler:

greatest city in the western hemisphere.

Marshall Adler:

So any, anybody from Buffalo is a softs part of my soft spot in my heart.

Marshall Adler:

And in herb is a Buffalo Bills fan like I am so we're, I just want to get

Marshall Adler:

that on the record before we start.

Marshall Adler:

So Herb, uh, I do want to get serious here and.

Marshall Adler:

If you can please tell us your story and your journey of loss and grief.

Marshall Adler:

I think that'd be a good place to start.

Herb Knoll:

Okay.

Herb Knoll:

Sure.

Herb Knoll:

And thank you for the invitation to be with you today.

Herb Knoll:

Um, my wife, uh, her name was Michelle, uh, was diagnosed with

Herb Knoll:

pancreatic cancer at the age of 49.

Herb Knoll:

And that was 15 years ago.

Herb Knoll:

Or almost almost 16.

Herb Knoll:

Um, so that started a 39 month journey of caregiving.

Herb Knoll:

And I had a lot of help from neighbors and such.

Herb Knoll:

She had to have 150 chemo treatments.

Herb Knoll:

So it costs me 300 lunches because they would go to lunch and the neighbors

Herb Knoll:

who escorted her to the treatment.

Herb Knoll:

So I could still go to my job.

Herb Knoll:

And it was, it was difficult.

Herb Knoll:

I mean, I watched her fade away from a size 10 to an eight to a six to a four

Herb Knoll:

to a two to a zero over that 39 months span by, she passed in March of 2008.

Herb Knoll:

And I'm a banker by trade and we were new.

Herb Knoll:

I had accepted a position in San Antonio, Texas with a bank, and

Herb Knoll:

we' were new and we were just, we hadn't even emptied all of our boxes.

Herb Knoll:

And that's when she died.

Herb Knoll:

And so about four months later, I was in my office and my routine was

Herb Knoll:

get up and be in the office by four, worked like crazy all day and then

Herb Knoll:

go home at about seven and crash.

Herb Knoll:

And that was my life.

Herb Knoll:

That was the extent of it.

Herb Knoll:

And one of my young employees came into my office.

Herb Knoll:

I mean, she was only about 19 years old, but she had the

Herb Knoll:

courage to tell me something.

Herb Knoll:

And she said, everybody on the floor misses your laughter because

Herb Knoll:

I'm a pretty gregarious guy.

Herb Knoll:

And I realized when she told me that, that I wasn't handling my grief well enough.

Herb Knoll:

So I decided to seek out help.

Herb Knoll:

I went to my church and frankly, I was disappointed because they didn't

Herb Knoll:

have anything, not even a hotline number, not, not a flyer or brochure.

Herb Knoll:

They just, I find a tremendous number of churches are ill prepared to deal

Herb Knoll:

with grief, which really staggers me.

Herb Knoll:

I mean, It surprises me that, uh, when people think of death, they think of their

Herb Knoll:

house of worship and they come together and, but the clergy just aren't prepared.

Herb Knoll:

They're not trained.

Herb Knoll:

In fact, in most colleges seminaries, they don't even teach grief.

Herb Knoll:

It's not even on the curriculum.

Herb Knoll:

So anyhow, I learned that after the fact, then I went to the veterans

Herb Knoll:

administration because I'm a disabled vet.

Herb Knoll:

And they assigned a counselor to me, which was helpful.

Herb Knoll:

But then I went to Barnes and Noble and I asked the gentleman behind the counter.

Herb Knoll:

Do you have anything for a widower?

Herb Knoll:

Well, he typed widower in his computer's search engine.

Herb Knoll:

He then looked up at me and he said, Mr.

Herb Knoll:

I don't have a damn thing for you.

Marshall Adler:

Wow.

Herb Knoll:

Now you said let's go over to the bookcase and see what we can find.

Herb Knoll:

And we found 15 books, all written for widows, and he said some of

Herb Knoll:

the chapters may apply to you, but I don't have a book for widowers.

Herb Knoll:

Well, I had been published in the past and I decided right there and

Herb Knoll:

then that I was going to write a book.

Herb Knoll:

I said, someone better write this book and it might as well be me.

Herb Knoll:

So a few months later I left my position.

Herb Knoll:

I was a senior officer in banking.

Herb Knoll:

I left my career of 38 years to begin my research of my book, and I spent eight

Herb Knoll:

years researching it and publishing it.

Herb Knoll:

And I had, I reached out to 40 widowers.

Herb Knoll:

From all different markets, segments, demographics, conditions

Herb Knoll:

of the how the wife passed and they were my subject matters.

Herb Knoll:

They were, they tolerated me for eight years coming up with questions.

Herb Knoll:

They answered on 11 page single space questionnaire for me.

Herb Knoll:

I mean, I really went deep and then I went and found professional staff

Herb Knoll:

like attorneys, psychologists, sociologists, medical doctors, uh, clergy.

Herb Knoll:

And I surrounded myself with the and then I was able to publish the book.

Herb Knoll:

And, uh, three years ago, since that time, the book has become a play and it won best

Herb Knoll:

new play of the year in upstate New York.

Herb Knoll:

It played at the alleyway theater in Buffalo.

Marshall Adler:

Wow.

Steve Smelski:

Oh Wow

Herb Knoll:

And it's called I'm Fine.

Herb Knoll:

And the name I'm Fine came from one of my subjects, one of the widowers

Herb Knoll:

subjects that, um, he said, I asked him once, what's the best thing that ever

Herb Knoll:

happened to you during your grief journey?

Herb Knoll:

And he said, when I told my family and friends, I'm fine,

Herb Knoll:

leave me alone with my thoughts.

Herb Knoll:

They ignored my instructions and forced their way into my life.

Herb Knoll:

And I'm so grateful they did.

Herb Knoll:

So anyhow, she came to play.

Herb Knoll:

So that's how I lost my wife.

Herb Knoll:

And then I decided that I needed to do more.

Herb Knoll:

So I created the Widowers Support Network and it has several different

Herb Knoll:

components in it, but the most popular one is my men's only Facebook page.

Herb Knoll:

So you have to apply and you have to be either a widower, or a

Herb Knoll:

caregiver, or a sympathetic man who wants to help those, those members.

Herb Knoll:

And I have over a thousand men that I care for and we give

Herb Knoll:

them content every single day.

Herb Knoll:

And I find that reaching out to the men gave me purpose

Herb Knoll:

and men have to have purpose.

Herb Knoll:

In fact, I teach that, that you have to find that in yourself, And the

Herb Knoll:

men that I find that join my group come from really all walks of life.

Herb Knoll:

They are PhDs, they are professors, they are garbage men.

Herb Knoll:

They are unemployed.

Herb Knoll:

The conditions that their wives have died, varied completely from

Herb Knoll:

childbirth to murder, to suicide.

Herb Knoll:

I mean, we get the whole gamut and what we do is we listen to them, we comfort

Herb Knoll:

them and we encourage them and we give them content like on Sundays, we pay

Herb Knoll:

respect to the Christian community.

Herb Knoll:

We also talk sports on Sunday .On Mondays we talk about

Herb Knoll:

money in your personal finance.

Herb Knoll:

On Tuesday, we have music and we have columnist.

Herb Knoll:

I have nine columnists that write columns for me, and they are either authors

Herb Knoll:

of books or they're widowed or theirs.

Herb Knoll:

They have a reason to be there on Wednesdays.

Herb Knoll:

We talk about their health.

Herb Knoll:

And more column is more columnist on Thursdays.

Herb Knoll:

On Fridays, we remembered the Jewish faith.

Herb Knoll:

We talked sports again on Thursday.

Herb Knoll:

On Saturday, we talk about handyman's corner and how to fix things around

Herb Knoll:

the house because so many men are capable of running a corporation,

Herb Knoll:

but they can't balance the checkbook.

Herb Knoll:

They can't pay the paper, boy.

Herb Knoll:

I mean, they are totally incompetent without a wife.

Herb Knoll:

And especially, especially if they hit, if they grew up with a doting

Herb Knoll:

mother who met their every need.

Herb Knoll:

And then she even went out and found him a doting wife, and

Herb Knoll:

then she continued the saga.

Herb Knoll:

Well, those guys are in deep trouble and we throw them a life raft.

Herb Knoll:

So, um, And it's the most gratifying thing I've ever done.

Marshall Adler:

Herb, that's amazing.

Marshall Adler:

I just like to follow up.

Marshall Adler:

I'm not sure if you know this.

Marshall Adler:

I met Steve after my son, Matt passed away.

Marshall Adler:

He passed away July 22nd, 2018.

Marshall Adler:

And.

Marshall Adler:

I like you knew I had to do something.

Marshall Adler:

So my wife went on the internet and he said, I've got to find something.

Marshall Adler:

And she found Grief Share, and she goes, what do you think?

Marshall Adler:

I go, I have no idea what that is.

Marshall Adler:

She goes, some guy Steve's running it.

Marshall Adler:

I go shoot him an email and see if we can join.

Marshall Adler:

So, I mean, we were like two or three weeks after we lost Matt and we went

Marshall Adler:

there and I've told this story before where Steve started the grief share.

Marshall Adler:

By asking everybody if they had taken courses on grief.

Marshall Adler:

And again, I just lost my son and I go, of course they

Marshall Adler:

haven't taken a course on grief.

Marshall Adler:

Everybody else there was saying, no, we haven't taken a course on grief.

Marshall Adler:

Like who in their right mind would ever take a course on grief.

Marshall Adler:

You'd be insane.

Marshall Adler:

But we obviously know now that you will be needing a course on grief.

Marshall Adler:

If you are a human live in this planet, cause either you're going to pay us a bit

Marshall Adler:

of going to review or you're going to live and your loved ones are going to pass.

Marshall Adler:

So what you're sort of saying is what Steve really began his course

Marshall Adler:

on Grief Share dealing with that.

Marshall Adler:

There is no course on grief and we really have to fill that void

Marshall Adler:

because there's such a need for it.

Marshall Adler:

And I'm fascinated by the way you did that because my journey is

Marshall Adler:

a little different than yours.

Marshall Adler:

And since they had you're a widower and I'm lost my son, my question for our

Marshall Adler:

church to Steve is, do you have children?

Marshall Adler:

Do you, do, do you have any sons or daughters?

Marshall Adler:

How many children do you have?

Herb Knoll:

I have four but i've remarried.

Herb Knoll:

Okay.

Herb Knoll:

And so I have four stepchildren and my children.

Herb Knoll:

Okay.

Herb Knoll:

And I have several grandchildren.

Marshall Adler:

How was their journey been different than yours?

Marshall Adler:

Have you incorporated their journey at all into your journey

Marshall Adler:

as a widower dealing with grief?

Herb Knoll:

Yes, yeah, they are somewhat, you know, it's interesting

Herb Knoll:

you asked that because as I think about my father who was a widower.

Herb Knoll:

I feel embarrassed that I did not do more for him,

Marshall Adler:

But that's what I'm sort of getting at, right.

Marshall Adler:

The different dynamics and different journeys.

Herb Knoll:

And he lived a long time.

Herb Knoll:

He lives 12 years later and I, I just was not understanding enough.

Herb Knoll:

But my children are all sympathetic and they're all sensitive to it.

Herb Knoll:

And they all liked her, you know, so it, my, my, my new wife is terrific.

Herb Knoll:

I mean, andI just hope that if there's an afterlife that I'm going

Herb Knoll:

to have to introduce the two of them,

Marshall Adler:

Hopefully there'd be a nice dinner

Herb Knoll:

Actually.

Herb Knoll:

That's not a problem.

Herb Knoll:

That's not a problem.

Steve Smelski:

Interesting.

Steve Smelski:

So we did mention your book before her.

Steve Smelski:

Let's go ahead and tell everybody what the name of the book is, so they can find it.

Herb Knoll:

Okay.

Steve Smelski:

In case they are interested in it.

Herb Knoll:

It's the widower's journey and I had a expert as, uh

Herb Knoll:

may, among my various experts.

Herb Knoll:

I had a lead expert in a Dr.

Herb Knoll:

Debra Carr, who is the head of the Sociology Department at Boston University.

Herb Knoll:

And she studied grief for 20 years.

Herb Knoll:

So she was a real fine for me to have available as a resource.

Steve Smelski:

Okay, great.

Steve Smelski:

I just want to make sure everybody had the name of the book in case

Steve Smelski:

they want to go find it and look for it, then they can find it

Herb Knoll:

And it's available in all digital formats.

Herb Knoll:

So you can get it on amazon.com.

Steve Smelski:

I found it on Amazon this morning when I was looking.

Steve Smelski:

Interesting enough, Marshall mentioned Grief Share, and that's

Steve Smelski:

how I actually met you as well.

Steve Smelski:

So I remember that night you came in.

Herb Knoll:

Yeah, I that's when I was still writing the book and researching it,

Herb Knoll:

and I've read so much about Grief Share that I wanted to go in and experience

Herb Knoll:

it so I can speak to it intelligently.

Herb Knoll:

And it was grea, it was great, it was helpful.

Steve Smelski:

Good.

Steve Smelski:

Obviously you didn't receive enough information as a new

Steve Smelski:

widower and there were no books.

Steve Smelski:

So you actually wrote the first book on it.

Steve Smelski:

Why do widowers grieve differently?

Steve Smelski:

Is it because men are brought up differently with their grief?

Steve Smelski:

They're not supposed to show emotions.

Steve Smelski:

What did you find in that area?

Herb Knoll:

Um, men, oh boy, I can be somewhat critical of my fellow

Herb Knoll:

man, uh, when it comes to this topic, because I think they don't really use

Herb Knoll:

their brains fully and they react.

Herb Knoll:

And I find that they're, like I mentioned before, they're

Herb Knoll:

very dependent on the spouse.

Herb Knoll:

If there is a spouse, except there is, uh, something that I did observe,

Herb Knoll:

and that is people who have been in the military, tend to fare better in

Herb Knoll:

dealing with grief because they have become they understand structure.

Herb Knoll:

They amend work better with structure.

Herb Knoll:

They understand that they have to get off the couch and get in the game to prevail.

Herb Knoll:

Many of them have seen death in the past, which also helps

Herb Knoll:

and they know how to live.

Herb Knoll:

I mean and survive and they can iron their own clothes and they can

Herb Knoll:

cook their own meals and they can bandage up a wound where other men.

Herb Knoll:

Mommy, where are you?

Herb Knoll:

I need this, I need that.

Herb Knoll:

And it's really sad to observe this in people.

Herb Knoll:

So there's some people who, like I said before, it can run a corporation,

Herb Knoll:

but can't balance a checkbook.

Herb Knoll:

There's also the emotional side.

Herb Knoll:

They go home and they, they tell people I'm fine.

Herb Knoll:

Leave me alone with my thoughts in the darkened home with the curtains drawn.

Herb Knoll:

And they're really hoping that somebody knocks on the door or

Herb Knoll:

calls them, but with a pandemic.

Herb Knoll:

We have what's called compound isolation and it's even worse.

Herb Knoll:

And that'd be the doctor, Kara and I, we actually did a podcast about

Herb Knoll:

that ourselves a couple of months ago about compound isolation.

Herb Knoll:

And it's, it's dangerous, but it's the, it's the world that we live in.

Herb Knoll:

And for these, for the time being,

Steve Smelski:

:

Unfortunately, you're right.

Marshall Adler:

Herb, what do you think is normal for a widower to feel right after a

Marshall Adler:

loss because you know, men are different.

Marshall Adler:

I hear what you're saying, but there's also, you know, so much of, you

Marshall Adler:

know, I can say growing up in Buffalo as sports was always a big thing.

Marshall Adler:

And, you know, I always remember, you know playing sports and getting hurt.

Marshall Adler:

You know, you can have a huge gash in your leg, you know, put

Marshall Adler:

dirt on it and keep on playing.

Marshall Adler:

Like that's going to solve everything you know, like you just tough it out and, and

Marshall Adler:

stay in the game, which when you're a kid and you're resilient, that's one thing.

Marshall Adler:

But when you're an adult and you're lost somebody, you love it's something else.

Marshall Adler:

So how does that factor into the grief of a Widower?

Herb Knoll:

The the, what was, um,

Steve Smelski:

So going through the grief classes, we've learned, there's certain

Steve Smelski:

things that you think you're going crazy and you find out it's actually normal

Steve Smelski:

to feel like that, or to think that way.

Steve Smelski:

So I think what Marshall and I were trying to get at is.

Steve Smelski:

What are some of the things that you realized that were normal, that at the

Steve Smelski:

time you didn't think it was normal until you started doing your research

Steve Smelski:

for your book and then you go, Oh, wow.

Steve Smelski:

That, that, that really is perfectly normal,

Herb Knoll:

Well crying and grieving and then I'm embarrassed

Herb Knoll:

men have equals, you know.

Herb Knoll:

And one gentleman just wrote on my Facebook page the other day, I'm a PhD.

Herb Knoll:

I know better.

Herb Knoll:

And I'm still reluctant to cry in front of other people.

Herb Knoll:

You know, he's men, especially in the western hemisphere are

Herb Knoll:

reluctant to show their emotions.

Herb Knoll:

In Europe and Asi, it's not that big of a problem, but here, you know, we've become

Herb Knoll:

stoic and we can't be seen hurting because then you're going to think less of me.

Herb Knoll:

I mean, I'm sure that my boss questioned my ability to perform at

Herb Knoll:

the bank with during the period that I was grieving, I had the personnel

Herb Knoll:

director walked into my office, saw me sitting at my desk, crying, closed the

Herb Knoll:

door, turned around and walked away.

Herb Knoll:

Didn't say a word.

Herb Knoll:

Didn't offer me anything.

Herb Knoll:

Now, if I was a girl, he probably would have said, Oh honey, are you okay?

Herb Knoll:

Do you want some tissue?

Herb Knoll:

Here's a glass of water.

Herb Knoll:

You know, it's there is a difference of our society on how we treat men.

Herb Knoll:

And that's why men don't ask for help and they desperately need help,

Herb Knoll:

but especially in Buffalo or in the Northern climates during the winter,

Herb Knoll:

when the days are short and the nights are long and the weather is blistery,

Herb Knoll:

they are isolated for weeks on end.

Marshall Adler:

Yeah,

Herb Knoll:

Which is very true.

Steve Smelski:

You said something about the crying part.

Steve Smelski:

I realized that Jordan only saw me cry once and it was when we lost a pet.

Steve Smelski:

When he was, I don't know, 10, 10 and a half.

Steve Smelski:

He died at 11 and a half.

Steve Smelski:

I think I cried every day for two years, at least a couple of minutes every day.

Steve Smelski:

And I'm like, wow, I never showed him that side of me.

Steve Smelski:

So you're exactly right until I lost him.

Steve Smelski:

I just, I wasn't su you're supposed to be tough.

Steve Smelski:

You're supposed to be the, you're supposed to be able to show him the way.

Steve Smelski:

And it's like, I'm not sure what I showed him.

Steve Smelski:

Probably what every other guy does but...

Herb Knoll:

Yeah.

Herb Knoll:

And if you're candid, it will go on for years because grief

Herb Knoll:

doesn't have a natural cycle.

Herb Knoll:

You can have a good week, a good month.

Herb Knoll:

And then suddenly you crash.

Herb Knoll:

You have triggers that create a memory and then you go back and

Herb Knoll:

you suffer through that trigger.

Herb Knoll:

When I moved to where I'm living now, I lived very close to here

Herb Knoll:

20 years ago with Michelle.

Herb Knoll:

Well, I could tell you.

Herb Knoll:

The restaurant on Lake Mary Boulevard, what she wore the last time we were there.

Herb Knoll:

So every time I go by that restaurant, I can't help but think about it, you

Herb Knoll:

know, you just, and that's been 13 years, so it's not going to be easy.

Herb Knoll:

Everybody expects the men to get back in the game.

Herb Knoll:

And that means ladies, that means I need to find a woma and

Herb Knoll:

because I'm men are fixers, Steve and I are talking about this.

Herb Knoll:

Men are fixers.

Herb Knoll:

Now I'm going to tell you a story about my brother.

Herb Knoll:

My brother was on a plane with his wife.

Herb Knoll:

And his wife said to leaned over and said to him, the little boy on the seat

Herb Knoll:

behind me is kicking the back of my seat.

Herb Knoll:

Well, my brother being a man, which means he's a fixer turned around to

Herb Knoll:

all the boy and said, knock it off.

Herb Knoll:

Well, the wife leaned back over to him again and said, why'd you do that?

Herb Knoll:

And she said, well, you told me he was kicking your seat.

Herb Knoll:

Is that yes, he was.

Herb Knoll:

I didn't want you to do anything.

Herb Knoll:

I just want you to know it.

Herb Knoll:

So men are fixers and when their wife is passed, they see

Herb Knoll:

themselves and I need to be whole.

Herb Knoll:

So frequently they'll marry the first girl that they, they date the first girl.

Herb Knoll:

It doesn't matter anybody.

Herb Knoll:

And their fatality rate of their marriages is over 50%.

Herb Knoll:

But the other thing that impacts men is suicide because the four

Herb Knoll:

to five times the suicide rate of women, men will commit suicide.

Herb Knoll:

And because they're so they're sold, lost, they could have a great

Herb Knoll:

career, but they're still lost.

Herb Knoll:

What most men do is they just buried themselves back into their jobs.

Herb Knoll:

Like I did it four in the morning.

Marshall Adler:

It's perfect.

Marshall Adler:

Obviously, as I mentioned before, my son had died by suicide and I'm very involved

Marshall Adler:

with the latest research and statistics.

Marshall Adler:

And I know you talked about the effect of the pandemic on grief while they're

Marshall Adler:

doing a lot of statistical research now of the effect of the pandemic on suicide.

Marshall Adler:

And it is not good because you know, with grief, you know, Steve, and I've

Marshall Adler:

talked about this, like in the Jewish religion, you have a period called

Marshall Adler:

Sitting Shivah where everybody comes over friends, family loved ones, and

Marshall Adler:

just sort of takes over the house for the grieving family, bring in food.

Marshall Adler:

And it's a very helpful way to begin the journey of grief.

Marshall Adler:

You can't do that now with the pandemic, you can't have 15 people in your house

Marshall Adler:

bringing in food and everybody hugging and kissing and giving you emotional support.

Marshall Adler:

So you already start off at a deficit to begin with.

Marshall Adler:

And then you talked about being home with the curtains closed, then

Marshall Adler:

you're by yourself, that social isolation, that's social distancing.

Marshall Adler:

It's what you have to do now with a pandemic and it's horrible for grief and

Marshall Adler:

it's horrible for what effect it's having on people, including suicide, because

Marshall Adler:

they are showing that statistically, the suicide numbers this year compared

Marshall Adler:

to last year or the year before the year before are in fact higher.

Marshall Adler:

And they're trying to obviously make the connection that is the pandemic causing

Marshall Adler:

this and it would sure the heck seem like there's a causal relationship there.

Marshall Adler:

And I think with men being the stoic and tough guys they were supposed

Marshall Adler:

to be, we just compiled that.

Herb Knoll:

No question.

Herb Knoll:

It's yeah, no, no question.

Herb Knoll:

Now there's some tools that are out there that are available for

Herb Knoll:

such cases like take them a meal.

Herb Knoll:

Are you familiar with that?

Marshall Adler:

No,

Steve Smelski:

No

Herb Knoll:

It's a software program it's online . Ihttps://takethemameal.com and

Herb Knoll:

you can schedule uh, so that you don't get all the meals at one day and then nothing

Herb Knoll:

for the next month and then ladders them.

Herb Knoll:

It spaces them out and you can, then you can send it out to a bunch of relatives.

Herb Knoll:

And then those who are in a position to help can take a day and

Herb Knoll:

say what they're going to bring.

Herb Knoll:

So if there's some tools out there in zoom

Marshall Adler:

Right

Herb Knoll:

And it's a big, big, I can't imagine being in a pandemic

Herb Knoll:

without zoom, it would be even more hurtful and more damaging.

Marshall Adler:

It would absolutely.

Marshall Adler:

And, you know, I think we need human contact in any way, shape

Marshall Adler:

or form you can get it, you know, is this as good as a hug?

Marshall Adler:

Of course not, but it's better than isolation.

Marshall Adler:

That's where you got to look at it.

Herb Knoll:

Yeah.

Herb Knoll:

I I've thought about my daughter who is single and I've actually

Herb Knoll:

congratulated her that she is trying very hard, but she's living alone.

Herb Knoll:

So she has very little contact with other humans.

Herb Knoll:

So I'm right now, practicing high touch.

Herb Knoll:

You know, daily messages, phone calls, you know, anything gifts, you know,

Herb Knoll:

anything to break up her day for

Marshall Adler:

Right.

Marshall Adler:

How old is your daughter?

Herb Knoll:

Oh, she's in her forties and she works up at

Herb Knoll:

the University of Connecticut.

Marshall Adler:

Yeah, it's again, I think the effect of the pandemic on society in

Marshall Adler:

general and people in grief in particular is going to be profound, that we may

Marshall Adler:

not even know the true permanent effect of that for years, maybe even decades,

Marshall Adler:

this is going to have a big, big effect.

Marshall Adler:

You know, you think about this.

Marshall Adler:

When was the last time people couldn't grieve normally a hundred years ago

Marshall Adler:

during the 1918 flu pandemic, it's been a hundred years now in our lifetime.

Marshall Adler:

And so this is unchartered territory, it really is.

Herb Knoll:

It's tough.

Marshall Adler:

It's tough.

Marshall Adler:

It really, really is.

Marshall Adler:

I know that you also have a podcast, right?

Marshall Adler:

Like, as we're doing now, like what, what made you want to do a podcast?

Marshall Adler:

I'm interested in that because obviously we're doing that to try to help as many

Marshall Adler:

people as you can in the grief process.

Marshall Adler:

But what was your, what was your thought process with your podcast?

Herb Knoll:

The men are of different ages and over half of them are under 50.

Herb Knoll:

So they have different preferences and communications.

Herb Knoll:

So I wanted to be sure that I was reaching them.

Herb Knoll:

So I created the podcast and, um, we have a one that's coming up.

Herb Knoll:

I did one this afternoon earlier today, but I'm, I have one coming up with this

Herb Knoll:

gentleman on Monday and he wrote the book, "My wife said, You May Want to Marry Me."

Herb Knoll:

His name is Jason Rosenthal and his wife wrote an essay saying that appears in

Herb Knoll:

New York Times and it's in 2017 and the header her was, you may want to marry my

Herb Knoll:

husband and then she died 10 days later.

Herb Knoll:

Well, he's done a Ted talk and, uh, he's speaking now he's a

Herb Knoll:

lawyer by trade he's in Chicago.

Herb Knoll:

And so, you know, we go out and we find people like him that we can interview

Herb Knoll:

that we have something that we can learn from and share it with my audience.

Herb Knoll:

And I hope that they, my audience listens to my podcast, like when

Herb Knoll:

they're driving their cars or whatever.

Herb Knoll:

And also the reach.

Herb Knoll:

I mean, I I'm in 26 countries with my podcast, so my audience has expanded and

Herb Knoll:

I also write a newspaper or a column.

Herb Knoll:

In fact, here's one right here.

Herb Knoll:

I write for 22,000 funeral directors.

Herb Knoll:

And so my column appears there and it appears in India with some organization

Herb Knoll:

over there and Open to Hope in California, The Grief Tool Box and New Hampshire.

Herb Knoll:

I, you know, I get around using different channels.

Marshall Adler:

That's fantastic.

Marshall Adler:

How did you navigate the technology?

Marshall Adler:

I'm very impressed that your, that you're able to do all that seriously.

Marshall Adler:

I I'm a little bit younger than you and it sounds like you've really

Marshall Adler:

taken this head on with enormous amount of energy and enthusiasm.

Marshall Adler:

Seriously.

Marshall Adler:

You know, Steve and I have been doing this podcast together, but Steve is far

Marshall Adler:

more advanced technologically than I am.

Marshall Adler:

I, my lawyer.

Marshall Adler:

But from a technological standpoint, I kid my secretary,

Marshall Adler:

she's been with me for 32 years.

Marshall Adler:

I said, we practice Fred Flintstone law.

Marshall Adler:

I know what I know.

Marshall Adler:

And I know how to do that.

Marshall Adler:

And I don't want to go too far field, but sounds like you've taken your

Marshall Adler:

grief and really channeled that into learning new things and experiencing

Marshall Adler:

new things for me to help others.

Herb Knoll:

I have been blessed in my career.

Herb Knoll:

Uh, I started off in banking, repossessing cars, and I ended up as a bank president.

Herb Knoll:

And, uh, along that path, I was held many marketing and sales positions,

Herb Knoll:

government relations positions, and the collective skills that were

Herb Knoll:

needed for those positions is what I'm using to do what I do today.

Herb Knoll:

Had I not had my career.

Herb Knoll:

I could not even attempt what I do today.

Herb Knoll:

So I'm very, very grateful for what my job taught me.

Herb Knoll:

And it's the best thing that I've ever done is very, very gratifying.

Herb Knoll:

There's not a day that goes by that somebody doesn't write a post or call

Herb Knoll:

me, or send me a note saying how much it means to them, how much they are

Herb Knoll:

dependent upon you know, my the various tools that I make available to them.

Herb Knoll:

I have a professor at Brigham Young University who is

Herb Knoll:

saying that he's married.

Herb Knoll:

He's not a widower, but he became familiar with me.

Herb Knoll:

I don't know how, but he did.

Herb Knoll:

And he called me up one day he's like 40 years old and he's a professor there.

Herb Knoll:

And he said, I teach computers.

Herb Knoll:

And how would you like me to redesign your website for you?

Herb Knoll:

And I'll use my students.

Herb Knoll:

Sure, you know, have at it.

Herb Knoll:

So I get a lot of help from the gentlemen who become familiar with my work.

Herb Knoll:

And they like my journalists, the guys who write the columns for me, I

Herb Knoll:

couldn't fill all those column inches, but they do it and they do a great

Herb Knoll:

job and they come up with topics that I never even would have thought of.

Herb Knoll:

So it's, um, it's a labor of love.

Herb Knoll:

I sometimes think that my by void of not helping my father more I'm giving

Herb Knoll:

forwar and I'm actually concerned that my health is going to come into play.

Herb Knoll:

And so I'm looking for a place that I can partner with or make some

Herb Knoll:

kind of special arrangements with.

Herb Knoll:

But because I know that the men are dependent upon me.

Herb Knoll:

And frankly, for widowers, my Facebook page is the best thing on the planet.

Herb Knoll:

I mean, there is nothing else out there for widowers.

Herb Knoll:

You may find widowers and widows, but nothing just for widowers.

Herb Knoll:

So we, um, once people become familiar with us, they become fans.

Marshall Adler:

That's fantastic.

Marshall Adler:

I mean, seriously, that, that speaks so well of you, that

Marshall Adler:

you were willing to help.

Marshall Adler:

So many people, you had the will to do it.

Marshall Adler:

And the ability to succeed at that goal is fantastic.

Marshall Adler:

I mean, that's how, let me ask you this.

Marshall Adler:

How does it help you when you have a tough day when you're

Marshall Adler:

getting hit by that wave of grief?

Marshall Adler:

When people are reaching out to you for help, how do you deal with it when it's

Marshall Adler:

your day to look for help when you're getting hit by that wave of grief?

Marshall Adler:

You know, I've, I've talked to Steve about this many times.

Marshall Adler:

I've always said that over time, Matt only been gone for two years now, the

Marshall Adler:

waves of grief become less frequent over time, but the wave height never changes.

Marshall Adler:

It's like when you get hit, it's like, you just lost your loved one.

Marshall Adler:

And so what I'm asking you is you've got so many people looking

Marshall Adler:

to you for help when they're dealing with their wave of grief.

Marshall Adler:

What do you do when you get hit with your wave of grief?

Marshall Adler:

Do you reach out to them or do you do other things?

Herb Knoll:

That's a good question.

Herb Knoll:

When I post things, I do it to satisfy some of my own issues,

Herb Knoll:

but I put it up anonymously.

Herb Knoll:

You know, if they know what's coming from me, but they don't know it's my issue.

Herb Knoll:

And then they will answer and frankly, the men are so active on this page.

Marshall Adler:

Hmm,

Herb Knoll:

That there's always something interesting that's going on.

Herb Knoll:

They talk about their girlfriends.

Herb Knoll:

They talk about they got engaged or like on Fridays we only allow good

Herb Knoll:

news, no tear jerking post , no crying.

Herb Knoll:

No, no sorrow, no grief; only good news on Fridays.

Herb Knoll:

And they will, they save it up during the week so they can post it on Fridays.

Herb Knoll:

And it could be that they did something with the grandchildren

Herb Knoll:

last labor day weekend, or they been able to overcome something that has

Herb Knoll:

been a hurdle for them, grief wise or health wise or whatever it is.

Herb Knoll:

So I'm nurtured.

Herb Knoll:

It's therapeutic for me.

Herb Knoll:

There's no doubt about it.

Herb Knoll:

Writing my book was very therapeutic for me.

Herb Knoll:

I almost quit I should tell you writing the book.

Herb Knoll:

And the book still earns five stars on Amazon.

Herb Knoll:

It still gets very good reviews, but I almost quit about 12 times

Herb Knoll:

and I'm a Catholic and I was in church and I said a silent prayer.

Herb Knoll:

I was at my wit's end and this is like eight years in and trying to

Herb Knoll:

lead volunteers for eight years, you know, the men who, Oh, it's

Herb Knoll:

Herb again, he's got more questions.

Herb Knoll:

The experts keeping them engaged and as he ever going to finish this book, I actually

Herb Knoll:

wrote 102,000 words, but I only published 59 because we wanted the book to be really

Herb Knoll:

a lot of red meat and I was in church and I said, God, if you really want this book,

Herb Knoll:

you're going to have to send me a sign.

Herb Knoll:

Well, the pastor gets up and does a homily that was custom made for my ears.

Herb Knoll:

And I thought to myself, okay, I'll give you the book.

Herb Knoll:

And six months later it was released.

Herb Knoll:

I told the pastor that he saved that book.

Herb Knoll:

Well, again, I should tell you, my current wife saved the book because I could not

Herb Knoll:

have written it without her support.

Herb Knoll:

And the number of hours that I put into the book.

Herb Knoll:

I mean, you're talking thousands of hours and I got binders and binders

Herb Knoll:

of research and questionnaires and et cetera, and tabulations.

Herb Knoll:

My wife is a very giving person, my current wife, and she enabled me to

Herb Knoll:

write the book and she's my biggest fan.

Marshall Adler:

Right, that's wonderful.

Marshall Adler:

I get that.

Marshall Adler:

I'm I'm just so impressed cause I I'm looking what you've done.

Marshall Adler:

You've written a book.

Marshall Adler:

You've set up a support network.

Marshall Adler:

You've got a podcast.

Marshall Adler:

I mean, you're like a one man band.

Marshall Adler:

I mean seriously, those guys with the, all the instruments

Marshall Adler:

and doing everything at once.

Marshall Adler:

I think it just is a good roadmap.

Marshall Adler:

Because anybody that loses a loved one, you want to make your life a tribute to

Marshall Adler:

theirs by making the world a better place, the way they did when they were here.

Marshall Adler:

And they're not, they're not here anymore, so we have to do it.

Marshall Adler:

And it sure the heck sounds like you're really doing a very good job with that.

Herb Knoll:

I'm a man of faith.

Herb Knoll:

And I've been blessed more than I deserve, as Ithey say, and I need to, I owe others.

Herb Knoll:

So I'm just trying to fulfill that obligation.

Marshall Adler:

Well, I think you're succeeding.

Marshall Adler:

And again, I can't tell you how much I'm impressed by what you're doing.

Marshall Adler:

And I've always said, the people from Buffalo are the best in the world and

Marshall Adler:

you, you're proving this, you're proving that with what you're doing seriously.

Herb Knoll:

You know, what's funny about the city of Buffalo is you

Herb Knoll:

go to a Tops Market or a w or a Wegmans, and you will talk to people

Herb Knoll:

who pass you with a shopping cart.

Herb Knoll:

You'll talk to them.

Herb Knoll:

Where can I find this?

Herb Knoll:

Or what?

Herb Knoll:

But in the South, if you're in a Publix or Winn Dixie, You don't dare talk to

Herb Knoll:

anybody because it's an affront to them.

Marshall Adler:

It's interesting that you mentioned that my, my father grew

Marshall Adler:

up in Buffalo, but my mother grew up on the lower East side of Manhattan.

Marshall Adler:

If you know, cats is delicate tests and the famous delicate in New York,

Marshall Adler:

she grew up right across the street and First Street and Avenue way.

Marshall Adler:

My grandfather was a Russian immigrant.

Marshall Adler:

It was a tailor and he went bankrupt during the depression.

Marshall Adler:

He had eight children and he had to work as a New York City sanitation

Marshall Adler:

man, a garbage man made $36 a week.

Marshall Adler:

You need to feed 10 people at $36 a week.

Marshall Adler:

So my mother moved to Buffalo after my father finished Podiatry school.

Marshall Adler:

My father was, it was a foot surgeon and she moved to Buffalo and she

Marshall Adler:

didn't even know where Buffalo was.

Marshall Adler:

She , she knew it was someplace West of the Hudson, but she

Marshall Adler:

didn't know where it was.

Marshall Adler:

And she told me so many times that her best friends in her entire

Marshall Adler:

life were people from Buffalo.

Marshall Adler:

They meant more to her than any of the friends she made it her entire life.

Marshall Adler:

So she was New Yorker, but she became a Buffalonian and I've had

Marshall Adler:

so many people telling me that.

Marshall Adler:

And it's just a mentality, you know, I, again, I love the tee

Marshall Adler:

shirts in Buffalo where it says Buffalo, the city of no illusions.

Marshall Adler:

That sort of stuff, that's sort of, it is what it is.

Marshall Adler:

And it's Buffalo and it's family and it's football and it's chicken wings.

Marshall Adler:

And it's a sense of community that I think we all need now.

Marshall Adler:

So obviously all the good things you've done.

Marshall Adler:

I think your Buffalo background have led you to where you are.

Herb Knoll:

Yeah.

Herb Knoll:

Thank you very much.

Marshall Adler:

Well, again, I want to thank you so much for talking today and

Marshall Adler:

I want to thank you so much for doing what you're doing and giving so much

Marshall Adler:

of yourself to those who need help.

Marshall Adler:

And I think, just think being a guest on our podcast today will help others

Marshall Adler:

that you may not available to reach through your wonderful activities.

Marshall Adler:

And I think this will be a wonderful thing to try to help others.

Marshall Adler:

And again, I just cannot tell you how impressed I am by everything you've

Marshall Adler:

done and everything that you are doing and just keep up the good work.

Marshall Adler:

It's wonderful.

Herb Knoll:

Well, thank you.

Herb Knoll:

If I can just say for gentlemen who are listening to this podcast to get

Herb Knoll:

on the page of our Facebook page, go to Widowers Support Network Members Only.

Herb Knoll:

Now we have two pages.

Herb Knoll:

We have Widowers Support Network for the general public, and then we have Widowers

Herb Knoll:

Support Network Members Only just for men.

Herb Knoll:

So i mean and it's for a free service.

Herb Knoll:

So we invite them to a check us out

Marshall Adler:

Great, great.

Marshall Adler:

I have all listeners will we'll do that.

Marshall Adler:

And again, I want to thank you so much for being a guest today was

Marshall Adler:

a very interesting conversation.

Marshall Adler:

I always love talking to anybody from Buffalo and seriously I do.

Marshall Adler:

I just, I love it.

Marshall Adler:

And off camera off mic, we were talking about our favorite

Marshall Adler:

places to eat in Buffalo, and I think we better leave it there.

Marshall Adler:

Cause if we started talking about Buffalo food.

Marshall Adler:

We'll be doing this podcast for the next six hours.

Marshall Adler:

So we'll leave that off audio and off video.

Marshall Adler:

But again, thank you so much for being here.

Marshall Adler:

And I know you really helped a lot of our listeners today.

Marshall Adler:

Thank you so much.

Herb Knoll:

Thank you for inviting me.

Marshall Adler:

Thank you.

Steve Smelski:

We wanted to thank everyone for joining us today

Steve Smelski:

with our conversation with Mr.

Steve Smelski:

Herb Knoll.

Steve Smelski:

Herb's got an awful lot going on.

Steve Smelski:

He's created a network for widowers support.

Steve Smelski:

He's got a podcast going and he's written a book and we'd like to thank

Steve Smelski:

him for it coming on and sharing today.

Steve Smelski:

We also would have to let you know if you're interested in getting a copy

of Herb's book, The Widower's Journey:

:

Helping Men Rebuild After Their Loss.

of Herb's book, The Widower's Journey:

:

You may contact Herb directly at his email address at

of Herb's book, The Widower's Journey:

:

herb@widowerssupportnetwork.com and go ahead and tell them you're interested

of Herb's book, The Widower's Journey:

:

in getting a copy of his book.

of Herb's book, The Widower's Journey:

:

And if you mentioned the discount code, hope you'll receive a 15% discount price

of Herb's book, The Widower's Journey:

:

off the purchase price of his book.

of Herb's book, The Widower's Journey:

:

So once again, that's herb@widowerssupportnetwork.com

of Herb's book, The Widower's Journey:

:

and just mentioned to Herb you're interested in a copy of his book.

of Herb's book, The Widower's Journey:

:

Go ahead and mentioned the discount code hope and you'll receive

of Herb's book, The Widower's Journey:

:

15% off the purchase price.

of Herb's book, The Widower's Journey:

:

Thank you for joining us today and hope you have a great day.

of Herb's book, The Widower's Journey:

:

Thank you.

of Herb's book, The Widower's Journey:

:

Thank you for joining us on Hope Thru Grief with your cohost

of Herb's book, The Widower's Journey:

:

Marshall Adler and Steve Smelski.

Marshall Adler:

We hope our episode today was helpful and informative.

Marshall Adler:

Since we are not medical or mental health professionals.

Marshall Adler:

We cannot and will not provide any medical, psychological,

Marshall Adler:

or mental health advice.

Marshall Adler:

Therefore, if you or anyone, you know, requires medical or mental health

Marshall Adler:

treatment, please contact a medical or mental health professional immediately.

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About the Podcast

Hope Thru Grief
Our mission is to create a community to bring hope through grief. Providing healing through our first hand experiences. Each day provides us an opportunity to continue to heal, as we get to meet and help others.
Have you recently lost a loved one? Are you struggling with grief? Don’t understand why the world has moved on and you are stuck? Wondering what will help? Have you lost all hope you will get back to any kind of “normal”?

Hope Thru Grief features husband and wife co-hosts Steve Smelski and Shelly Smelski to discuss their journeys of grief, after losing their son and other family members. They have changed their focus in life since their son’s death and have been helping others to find the support and answers they have been searching for.

Expect the unexpected. Honest and transparent discussions will reveal things hidden and overlooked which are quite common in coping with grief. Steve & Shelly will interview people from all walks of life, sharing their journeys of loss, as well as experts on recovery and finding hope in a world that has been changed forever.

If you are struggling with your grief, let’s talk together about ways to find healing in your journey and make it more meaningful and life-changing.

New Episodes every Thursday morning.

About your hosts

Randy Magray

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Randy has been producing podcasts for a decade as a creator, writer, host, and post-production specialist. He currently is the Podcast Producer for Duck Duck Productions in Orlando Florida and has worked extensively with the Smelski's on Hope Thru Grief and their Jordan Smelski Foundation for Amoeba Awareness.

Steve Smelski

Profile picture for Steve Smelski